Ju88

[Toad]

I think it's interesting that someone who has only used a part of one "two week free trial" can critique every single new version of the game in detail as they come out and do so within days of each release. Flight models, gunnery, leathality, new plane decisions....he knows it all and can point out where it's in error. Without even playing! Superman!

[eskimo]

I loved the JU-88 in... um... "that other game", and flew it often.  It's fast, climbs well, some versions may carry two torpedos, the mixed bomb load out was my favorite feature, and most importantly:

It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.

let me repeat that:

It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.
It fits into scenarios and a potential HA.

eskimo

[RAM]

Pyro first of all, THANKS for giving us the Ju88!!! It means a nice and wanted addition to the planeset  

I disagree with people whining about A-4 coming but I can see their point somehow. I also think that a Ju188 would have been better, tho, as it is a latewar development of the Ju88, much more capable in bomber roles...

 

Originally posted by Pyro:



With the Ju 88, we get a good and ubiquitous plane that can be converted to many uses.  We get a maneuverable bomber, a dive bomber, a torpedo bomber, and maybe even a Zerstorer.  The last two are helpful because it gives us something to get by on while those things are developed in ernest.  And yes, it is important for special events.  As for the 177, we will do it in time, but it doesn't hold a candle to the 88 in terms of what it brings to the game.  Sorry that you think the 88 is a poor bomber, we disagree on that.  

Agreed to an extent, because with A-4 we get a medium early war bomber, and there is no other role for it than the medium bomber...of course in next version you can bring new Ju88s with the other roles (C for night fighting and Buff hunting, S for fast bombing, Zerstorer versions with 75mm PaK guns   etc)...but right now the A4 is IMHO bassically defenceless against arena planes.

See, it is a FAST bomber...for 1941. It isnt any faster than a B26 and it has way worse defensive guns. German bombers relied in speed as they basical defense...and Ju88A4 is slow for the current planeset. And I think that you may agree with me  

Dont take me wrong, as I said ,Ju88A4 is a wonderful addition and a much asked one!...but I really get worried thinking ing Ju88s being hunted by F4U1-Cs...will be a slaughter.
 

Tell me, which version of the 177 you would like to see and why you think it's better than a Ju 88A-4.

Its just as I said avobe...He177 lacks the multirole possibilities that Ju88 has, but it is quite FAST bomber. So its surviving chances will be better than Ju88.

Dont take me wrong, I'd rather want to see a 88 coming than a 177. But you asked about advantages  


Anyway thanks for the plane, Pyro. Really apreciated  

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Karnak:



The Ju88 is not something that I am an expert on, but I do know that it served in many roles and was one of the most successful aircraft of the war.  I can't list out the versions like I did with the Lanc, but lets look at some of its roles.  Medium bomber.  Dive bomber.  Anti-shipping.  Zerstorer.  Nightfighter.

The Ju88 served as a medium bomber throughout the war.  The A-4 version that we are getting first was a medium bomber.

A medium bomber in 1940-41...dont forget that, Karnak. People here is right that A4 is too slow for a latewar planeset like the one we have now...And as I said in previous post, Germans relied in speed to protect their bombers from Ju88 onwards.


 

Later in the war, as Germany's situation worsened, the Ju88 was pressed into service as a Zerstorer.  Unfortunately, while it was tough and carried a heavy punch, the American fighters could easily shoot it down.  This was probably its least successful role.  The A-4 is obviously not a Zerstorer, but the option is there for the future.  All the guys complaining about the B-26 being used as a fighter are gonna hate this one.

My god...B26 was called the Flying squeak because its high wingloading! it killed novice crews because that!...B26s dogfighting is something to yell about because it is MIGHTY unrealistic...

Maneouvering Ju88A4s isnt that unrealistic...the plane was VERY nimble for a bomber and could do aerobatics never allowed in twin bombers before that. It had WAY less wingloading than B26...

So dont call that argument because it has no sense. B26s dogfighting with fighters is a monstrosity. Period. And that has nothing to do with Ju88.
 

 

With all of these roles available, HTC will be able to take the design and give many versions of it.  It will have many roles availble eventually.  The B-17 and Lancaster will always just be heavy bombers.

From my point of view, Karnak, people here doesnt yell because Ju88 is added to AH's planeset, but for the A4 chosen instead a later version. and while I love Ju88A4 added, and I dont mind it being the first instead other, I can see and understand the people who expected a more advanced one.

Of course there are good and bad ways to say the things...and this thread is not one of the bests in that regard.--------------->Said by the whinin champion of AH  

[Staga]

Dunno Toad...
Maybe free multiplayer ?  

In company I work for we have plenty of "yes mens"...

Wonderful,great,cool,wonderful....
Keep continuing that and see how company goes down...
Somekind of critic is allways good.

If you cant take the heat get out of fire  

Cool down and have a bottle of lemonade (Coors,Bud etc...Those are not beer  )

[Karnak]

RAM,
down boy, down.

You took that post in all the wrong ways.  I like the Ju88 and was supporting its capabilities in all of those roles.  I know it is a 1941 aircraft, but I'm sure later ones will come, probably quite quickly (I hope).  I have absolutely no problem with the Zerstorer and Nightfighter versions of the Ju88 and hope to see them in AH.  On of the advantages of the Ju88 is its manueverability.

I hope that a later version of the Ju88 shows up in 1.05, or in a patch to 1.04.  What I was taking exception to was the wanton, lets disregard historical facts, pro-Luftwaffe things that some people said, such as the Lancaster being a late war bomber.  It would have been nice to start with an Ju88A-14, but such was not to be.  The Luftwaffe fans also seem entirely to anti-RAF, e.g. if we can only have an early versionof our best bomber, then the Brits (who actually built big bombers) should only get a 1937 light bomber that proved to be a complete failure and had no impact on the war, they should only get the Blenheim.  Now, if they had suggested the Wellinton, I wouldn't have minded, but the totally over the top ranting was annoying.  As I pointed out, there isn't much difference between the various Lancs, so HTC can focus on new versions of the Ju88.

I do understand their frustration at geting a 1941 bomber, I just don't see the situation as being that bleak.


BTW RAM, thanks for reading and responding to my post.
Most people seem to have been caught up in the anti-Fishu idiocy.  

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 07-22-2000).]

[jihad]

 JU-88 in he main?

 BAH!-who cares about the main arena uses for it,add the SpitI,Hurricane,109E and ME-110-we can then do the Battle of Britain,Malta,and other events in the SEA.  

 I also seem to remember the JU 88 as being a tough bird to kill in WB due to its ability to take damage. Bring it on HTC!

------------------
Jihad
48th FG "Checkertails"

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
I think it's interesting that someone who has only used a part of one "two week free trial" can critique every single new version of the game in detail as they come out and do so within days of each release. Flight models, gunnery, leathality, new plane decisions....he knows it all and can point out where it's in error. Without even playing! Superman!

I haven't been even posting much on the board before V1.03.. hm.. patch 3 probably.
Now when I begin posting after a week (maybe 2-3 days over that week), I have suddenly been posting frequently for last few months..
Funny thing.

I do read message board every week at least, even if I don't play, but I don't critisize game if I don't know.
I might sound idiot and so on, but I still do put a line for that whats the truth and whats lie..  honestly, I don't like lying at all, even slightest lie makes me very sad if I have to.
for example, when I've been making mod, theres been few who has wanted to help me, and it is been *real* hard for me to tell them that they don't qualify for it yet.
Also, if I say something about game when I haven't played it, I also have included there "I've heard...", like I have done.
I do talk with people, and I do also include something into the message telling that its not been me, but someone else, who I trust, telling me so.. (usually more than just one), I have told that "i've heard" etc.

I am sorry if I sound idiot, but uh.. thats sort of bad habbit, which I am trying to work off, but don't tell me that I am liar if you don't like me though, thats bit far off.

[Fishu]

For truth, I am delighted to have Ju-88, it's something I've wanted to have for while.. but I must admit too that I we're bit dissapointed when we got A-4.
I am keeping thumbs up for new versions of Ju-88 though..
So if nobody of you has recently noticed, I have let off criticism on HTCs Ju-88..  latest message giving a hint on that was one where I said "maybe if we shut up, we might get new versatiles of Ju-88 in 1.05", or something close to that. (sorry, too lazy find it from the messages)

Also to say something clearly.. 1.03 is most promising, even 109 models satisfies me.
Gun models are very fine now also, except for Hispano anti-tank capabilities, which probably is my only 'real' complain.
Few still thinks that I mind bad about guns in A/A role, but no.. those feels correct now.. Hispanos aren't such 1 hit killers as those used to be and fifties are in realistic ranges.
But I really were waiting for Ju-88S or some other than A. (perhaps HTC will glue up new versions from A-4, like they've done with others)
Ostwind really amazed me.. its so rare and they did it, boy, favorite toy for me as flak gun.

(maybe this should get a new thread now?)

[Kieren]

Fishu-

Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up.  

[Fishu]

 

Originally posted by Kieren:
Fishu-

Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up.  

Uhh.. been on bad mood lately I guess, been kinda figuring whats up with me..

[spora]

I don't mind seeing US or whatever high power stuff modelled first.  I'm such a lousy fighter pilot (= I don't care to learn) that I usually pick up the most inferior piece of iron to fly - that could get a few surprise kills.

As to the Ju-88 discussion - heh, why not give us the experimental Ju-287 jet bomber with it inverted V -wings  

And an unrelated question to this thread:  How _do_ you know if someone is a paying customer or not?  Can you (excluding HTC staff) somehow see, for example, if I am a paying customer or a 2 week trial user?

[Pongo]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
why not model the Ju 88S-1 S-2 or S-3?

these were very high performance bombers and very fast

Ya, wouldnt it be as easy to roll back as forward if they want the earlier version later...
he he

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Staga:
Dunno Toad...
Maybe free multiplayer ?  

<No excuses for the length..some things need to be said.>

Well Staga ask yourself how long we've had working multiplayer? Then check and see how long the complaining about each release has been going on.  


You may think of me as a "yes" man...and that doesn't bother me a bit.

But I'll tell you how I look at it. My leadership training has been of the "Praise in public, critique in private" school. When I have a real bone to pick with HTC about something that I have first hand RL experience with (flying), then I either E-Mail or phone them and explain my view. We don't always agree; in fact, we rarely agree   but I get it off my chest and I DON'T RUN DOWN THE PRODUCT IN THE PUBLIC FORUM OF THEIR OWN BBS.

Now, when items come up for discussion on the BBS, I will add my _opinion_ if it is in an area in which I have some personal knowledge, experience or expertise. But again, I never try to claim any EVIL INTENT or DELIBERATE MIS-PROGRAMMING on the part of HTC. I also try to point out that it is my opinion.

Overall, I think HTC has a dream. They are trying to build the best WW2 Online Flight Sim available...with a total staff of 6. Think about that and how far this has come in 8 months.

They may get it exactly right, they may be wildly successful. They may fail to attract enough support and have to give up their dream...and we'll be much poorer for that.

I'll tell you what though...I'm DAMN GLAD someone who can program this stuff HAS this dream! This small crew has the track record and history that shows if anyone can do it, these just might be the ones.

I hope they succeed beyond all expectation! Why? Simply because I love WW2 aviation and air combat online TOO! I wanna play!

Now, if we just all squeak, squeak, squeak on this board, continually telling them how FUBAR-ED they are and how they deliberately & maliciously favor this over that....how do you think this story will end? Huh? Are you helping build the dream we all share?

If they get something wrong, the truly knowledgeable folks in the crowd point it out immediately. It's already happened with a few of the flight models, some of the historical configurations, etc., etc., etc. They LISTEN and they FIX what can be shown incorrect.

The main point is that it doesn't have to be an aggressive, acrimonius confrontation. It CAN be done with style and class, with a willing, helpful attitude, with dedicated testing and a desire to promote the DREAM to even greater glory, for us all to share.

What gets me riled? <as some of you may have noticed  > People that HAMMER them for trying to do their best. Do any of you REALLY believe that better aircraft are NOT coming for non-allied countries? Only the idiots would entertain that thought. I can't explain their timetable for aircraft release...and I don't care.

I know that if this succeeds, SOMEDAY we're going to have a full planeset. With the HELP of this community it's going to be damn good. (My personal fav is the BOB era. But I'm willing to wait as long as it takes.)  

In the meantime, I'm going to play as much as I can with whatever they provide for a mere $30 a month. Sit on the sidelines and squeak if you like, but this is still the best WW2 online sim currently available. I'm playing.


...and I drink Scotch, not lemonade. The only Finns I hung around in the USAF didn't drink lemonade either.  

Now that I've concluded my rant, I think I'll go have one!  

Have a nice day!

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Fishu:
I haven't been even posting much on the board before V1.03.. hm.. patch 3 probably.
Now when I begin posting after a week (maybe 2-3 days over that week), I have suddenly been posting frequently for last few months..
Funny thing.

Yep, pretty damn funny...

Because a simple search turns this up:

General Discussion 240+ posts, first one 10/07/99, last one 07/21/00, with multiple posts in every single month since October 99. (240+ because using "any date" only shows 200 but using "last 30 days" shows 40 that don't go back to where the 200 left off..so there's a few more.

Aircraft & Vehicles104 posts, 1st one 10/25/99, last one 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.

Gameplay/Feedback 74 posts, 1st on 10/29/99, last on 07/21/00, multiple posts in every single month since October 99.

...and that's where you'll find the continuous, poisonous "Fishu Attitude".

The rest of the message I just quoted is equally full of BS.

Now as for your following message, I'll echo Kieren: "Thank you. That was very refreshing, and at least lets me see you in another dimension. The way it sounded before, nothing measured up."

I'm now done "kicking" you on the board Fishu IF you've decided to switch over to positive, helpful, NON-ACCUSATORY, NON-ACRIMONIUS critiques and suggestions to HTC. I think you do have something to contribute..if you can drop the attitude.

Join the other guys trying to make this the best sim available...and be patient. Your planes are coming...and I support you in your desire for top-line LW aircraft. They need to be there and not just as "perks."

I'll welcome you in the arena anytime you choose to join up and play. I don't expect to be good buddies with ya, but hey that's life.