Author Topic: Murder/Crime Rates, US/ UK (Read 640 times)

NUKE · « **on:** November 17, 2002, 01:23:32 PM »

Crime rate per 100,000

Interpol's most current Crime Stats, UK ( England, Wales, Scotland)1998, US 2000

Murder Rate: UK 8.38, US 5.51

Breaking & Entering: UK 1975.15, US 728.42

Aggravated Theft: UK 2088.31, US 873.35

Car Theft UK 654.14, US 414.92

Theft( All kinds) UK 5543.45, US 3762.78

Wow! Banning guns does wonders for the murder and crime rate.

I like it when some silly Brit comes on here and posts "Fire-Arm" related murders firgures in the US vs UK. Why not go the extra step of providing figures for all murders?

They must be killing each other in the UK by some other, more humane means. Those UK thieves sure are having a hayday it seems...probably secure in the "anti-gun" culture.

Thrawn · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2002, 01:37:16 PM »

That is complete roadkill.

UK homocides. rate for 1998 per 100,000: 2.75

From interpol's web site.

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/1998/UKEnglandWales1998.pdf

NUKE · « **Reply #2 on:** November 17, 2002, 01:41:11 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
That is complete roadkill.

UK homocides. rate for 1998 per 100,000: 2.75

From interpol's web site.

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/1998/UKEnglandWales1998.pdf

Trawn, look at Scotland's rates on the same site. Scotland is part of the UK, as I stated in my post.
Average Scotland, England, Wales stats.
http://www.interpol.com/Public/Statistics/ICS/1998/UKScotland1998.pdf[/URL]
Maybe the UK serpates itself from Scotland in crimes, but I know they like to take credit for Scotlands inventors.

Thrawn · « **Reply #3 on:** November 17, 2002, 01:44:48 PM »

Why not Northern Ireland as well?

Maverick · « **Reply #4 on:** November 17, 2002, 01:49:10 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Thrawn
Why not Northern Ireland as well?

Why not fix the problems in your own kingdom intead of worrying about someone elses back yard.

PS for those who think this was a serious post.....bugger off! "p

swoopy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 17, 2002, 03:18:00 PM »

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Maybe the UK serpates itself from Scotland in crimes, but I know they like to take credit for Scotlands inventors.

Is it such a hard concept for many Yanks to understand? Scotland, England, Wales are the constituent parts of Great Britain. Great Britain and Northern Ireland form the United Kingdom. The UK couldn't separate itself from Scotland - Scotland is part of the UK. Comprende?

The population of Scotland is about 5 million. The population of the entire UK is 60 million. I think it would be far more representative to look at the whole UK for comparison wise - less chance of the results being skewed by anomolous results etc.

Also, NI is in those UK statistics - which is where most of the gun crime is concentrated, even post-Good Friday. It doesn't have much influence on the results - the combined UK murder rate is less than US.

-Dowding

lazs2 · « **Reply #6 on:** November 17, 2002, 03:27:43 PM »

seems that guns prevent a majority of crimes but have little or no effect on the amount of homicides... gun accidents are allmost nil and going down every year... Why would we want to give up our constitutional and human right to defend ourselves again?
lazs

Nashwan · « **Reply #7 on:** November 17, 2002, 04:31:12 PM »

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Trawn, look at Scotland's rates on the same site. Scotland is part of the UK, as I stated in my post.
Average Scotland, England, Wales stats.

Odd form of Maths.

England and Wales rate 2.75 per 100,000
Scotland rate 14.26 per 100,000

How did you arrive at the figure of 8.38? Halfway between England and Wales and Scotland?

That convieniently ignores the fact that England and Wales have more than 10 times the population of Scotland, so the statistics will be much closer to the England and Wales figure for the whole.

It's rather like taking the overall US murder rate, subtracting however many murders take place in Washington, then giving a figure midway between the US figure and the Washington figure as the average for the US. That would give you a figure of 20 or more per 100,000.

According to the Interpol figures, the UK average is 3.92.

According to the Interpol figures, the US rate is 5.51

However, the figures are odd.

If you look at the bottom of the US chart, it says

"Data supplied by the country but not calculated by the General Secritariats method"

It doesn't say that on the UK chart.

On the US chart, it shows 15,520 offences. It then has a column saying "Offenders", which it gives as 13,230

The FBI figures for 2000 give the figure of murder victims as 13,230, not the number of offenders.

The England and Wales figures are given as 1428 cases, but the next column shows attempted murders, as 676, and then number of solved crimes, as 92%.

It seems the Interpol method is to take murders and attempted murders and lump them together. Thus, take away the attempted figure for E+W, 676, from the total, 1428, and you get 752 murders.

The E+W stats show 745 murders in 1998/99, which is very close to the Interpol figure minus the attempted cases.

To sum up, Interpol say the US figures are not calculated to their methods, but don't say that about the E+W figures. The E+W figures seem to show attempted murders as murders, the US figures do not.

Even adding in attempted murders, the UK figures are still lower than the US figures.

As to adding the Northern Ireland figures, they are higher than England and Wales, but lower than the US figures. Given NI's tiny population, they would hardly change matters at all.

Nashwan · « **Reply #8 on:** November 17, 2002, 04:39:55 PM »

Oh, just checked the "attempted" figure for Scotland. 730 under the murders column, but 87% under the attempted figure.

NUKE · « **Reply #9 on:** November 17, 2002, 07:10:12 PM »

Quote

Also, NI is in those UK statistics - which is where most of the gun crime is concentrated, even post-Good Friday. It doesn't have much influence on the results - the combined UK murder rate is less than US.

Actually, I left N. Ireland's stats out, only used England, Scotland and Wales combines stats. Northern Ireland's murder rate is less than half of Scotland

Quote

Is it such a hard concept for many Yanks to understand? Scotland, England, Wales are the constituent parts of Great Britain. Great Britain and Northern Ireland form the United Kingdom. The UK couldn't separate itself from Scotland - Scotland is part of the UK. Comprende?

Thanks for backing my point of displaying the crime rates between Scotland, England and Wales, wich is 8.505 compared to 5.51 in the US
UK's full proper name: United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland . The UK includes England, Wales, Scotland and N. Ireland.

Quote

How did you arrive at the figure of 8.38? Halfway between England and Wales and Scotland

it's the average between Scotlands 14.26 and England/ Wales 2.75.... but it should be 8.505...I added wrong
You do know what an average between to figures is? I came up with the average murder rate per 100,000.

Quote

That convieniently ignores the fact that England and Wales have more than 10 times the population of Scotland, so the statistics will be much closer to the England and Wales figure for the whole.

Acutully the UK is the one that "conveinuently ingore's" the fact that Scotland is a part of the UK in it's stats. Why not list the stats as a whole of UK? Afraid of the results is my answer

Quote

The FBI figures for 2000 give the figure of murder victims as 13,230, not the number of offenders

You think the number of murder vicims is going to match the number of offenders? Mutliple murders per some offenders

ra · « **Reply #10 on:** November 17, 2002, 07:46:22 PM »

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it's the average between Scotlands 14.26 and England/ Wales 2.75..

That's not how statistics works. You want a weighted average, this number means nothing.

ra

Pei · « **Reply #11 on:** November 17, 2002, 07:49:37 PM »

Quote

Acutully the UK is the one that "conveinuently ingore's" the fact that Scotland is a part of the UK in it's stats. Why not list the stats as a whole of UK? Afraid of the results is my answer

Scotland is listed separately because is has it's own legal system which separate from that used in the rest of the UK. The Scots seem to like it that way. If you don't take the trouble to research these things I suggest you refrain from making statements. Just because you watched Braveheart doesn't mean you know anything about the relationship between the different member states in UK.

As nashwan and others pointed out the polulation of Scotland is only 10% of the whole UK population so averaging between England and Wales and Scotland produces a highly distorted figure.

The figures show that while the UK has more crime than the US but has less murders which what you would expect as firearms are far less prevalent in the UK than the US.

I'm not suggesting the US should change it's laws on firearms: that is the business of the US citizens and I'd assume that if they wanted things changed then it would have happened already. Also it would seem to be impractical : all that would happen is that millions of firearms would become illegal but they wouldn't disappear overnight. However one of things I assume the US is willing to accept for prevalence of guns in US society is more gun crime.

The interesting comparison is with Switzerland where most households have military grade weapons (because of the way thier military reserve system works), but gun crime is very low. Crime in general is very low so maybe that is the heart of it - the Swiss are a very orderly people. So it is possible to have guns in society but a very low rate of murders.

gatso · « **Reply #12 on:** November 17, 2002, 08:20:45 PM »

Lol. Nuke, Go find yourself 'Statistics for dummies'.

Taking the 1998 Eng/Wa, 1998 Sco and 1996 NI.

Actual homicides work out at

Eng - 1.45 / 100k
Sco - 1.86 / 100k
NI - 3.99 / 100k

Average figure is 1.509 / 100k

(thats 887 total murders and total population 58,782,983)

Add attempted muder and you get 3.85 /100k btw

Pei beat me to it. Scotland has limited self rule. NI has it's on/off reletionship with self rule. Both have certain areas where their police force is different to England&Wales.

Gatso

NUKE · « **Reply #13 on:** November 17, 2002, 08:52:36 PM »

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Lol. Nuke, Go find yourself 'Statistics for dummies'

OK, here you go

UK: England Wales Interpol 1998 2.75 homide rate per 100,000

http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/1998/UKEnglandWales1998.pdf

UK Scotland Interpol 1998 , 14.26 homicides per 100,000
http://www.interpol.com/Public/Statistics/ICS/1998/UKScotland1998.pdf

UK Nothern Ireland 6.41, 1996 Interpol homicides per 100,000
http://www.interpol.int/Public/Statistics/ICS/1996/UKNorthernIreland1996.pdf

Average is 7.80 when N.I. is included, 8.5 when only Scotland/Wales England

By the way, Scotland is part of the UK regardless of it's limited self rule or not.

gatso · « **Reply #14 on:** November 17, 2002, 09:26:37 PM »

Wrong again Nuke! Keep trying.

Hint: as already stated you can't just add the the three figures together and divide by three. Doesn't work like that. Go with raw numbers.

England/Wales
Population 52,010,160
Murders 752
Attempted Murders 676
Murders / 100k 1.45

Scotland
Population 5,120,000
Murders 95
Attempted Murders 635
Murders / 100k 1.86

NI
Population 1,652,823
Murders 40
Attempted Murders 66
Murders / 100k 3.99

Totals:
Population 58,782,983
Murders 887
Attempted Murders 1377
Murders / 100k 1.509
Murders+attempted /100k 3.85

Clearer?

Gatso

(All figures are from the three links you posted).