This note will proberly piss alot of you off

[RAM]

Well I must coincide with banana. After having to deal with some AGW stupid whiners here,your post is the clear proof that there is a lot of intelligent people in both communities. S! to you on the wonderful way you posted it!


now...lets see...

   

Originally posted by Obear:
It basically boils down to the dogfighting. It is not as enjoyable nor as fast and furious as WB's. You fly for what seems ages, you see a con and your up high, turn into his 6 and swoop down for the kill. Ok now he is better than you and manages to manoeuvre with minimal damage out of your line of sight. So you power away and swing in for another kill, again you over shoot, that's ok but the second time you come to turn the stall horn sounds like a dyeing whale and if you don't turn with the minimal of stick movement your sent spinning to the ground. BOOM

Umm well if you seek FAST action, like low level furballs and dogfights...well they dont happen too much in AH's Main Arena. But when they happen its a BLAST    .

Anyway it is a matter of realism. in WWII pilots used to climb with their planes up to their combat ceiling BEFORE entering the combat area. So here uses to happen the same thing.

Your post makes clear that you are mainly a TnB pilot. Well then I must admit you will have serious trouble here until you learn the FM very well...why? because TnB is a E-wasting way to fight, while people here knows to keep their Energy up all day long     so if you start Turning and Burning everyone in your, say, N1K2, you wont stay very long as an alive pilot    

What to do?...learn to fight with E-conservative moves instead pure TnB. That will make your life much longer, and funnier, I guarantee it    

   

Now like i say, i know all about the aerodynamics of aircraft and i am sure that HI TECH and the gang know there beans when it comes to a realistic flight sim.

[/b]

you are VERY right     HT is a damned fine pilot in AH ...and not too long ago he flew a REAL p51D. So hes knowledge in REAL warbirds handling and behaviour is far better than your's or mine's...

And Pyro knows a lot about planes, too     (now if he only came with 190D9....   )

   

But for myself, and i know many others, this is just no fun at all. It may well be the most realistic flight engine around, but that's just it, this is not real, its a game, and we have no input on our senses other than sight as to what our aircraft is doing.
There's no G force and although the sounds are far superior to WB's the engine pitch hardly changes weather your barley above stall speed or close to ripping the wings from your plane. Realistic maybe, but that's no good when your 1000 feet and have no bearings weather your going slow or fast. Yes, i know there is a speed indicator in the cockpit but who wants to spend all the time checking his dials when your in a dogfight. No sensory input means you need to make slight inaccurate changes in a game like this for everyone to enjoy.

Humm...define "fun". For me "fun" is to fly in the most realistic simulator on the market. you say that you NEED to make SLIGHT inaccurate changes in a game for enjoy? humm..did WWII pilots have range icons? and not-disturbed ballistics? did they whine about it was too much work to look to their dials when dogfighting?...

This is intended to be a REALISTIC WWII simulator...if you search those things ,give a chance to WB, EAW, or Jane's WWII.

you want my opinion?...stay here. It is tougher than anything out there in the market, agreed...but once you get the feeling of the FM it is just great. First of all get a trainer to help you (I'm not trainer but I'd love to give you some tips in TA if you want...email Ebringas@airtel.net). Then join a squad who will care about you, will make your experience funnier and will teach you a lot of things. and last, but VERY important, IMO, get a plane and master it.

Each plane is different,each one has its own strong points and weak points. By staying in the same one for 2 months you'll learn to "FEEL" when it is going to stall, how much can you zoom away before having to level, how to deal with the other planes...to put it in short words, it will become an EXTENSION of your mind, you'll feel it as an elongation of your own body.

I tell you to do that because all those things happened to me, when I first came here 6 months  ago I wasnt able even to take off (no autotake off then). I had no damned idea of what was E, and "trim" was an unknown word for me. First of all some people helped me when they saw I was so hopelessy dweeb, then I joined JG2 (the luckiest thing ever happened since I came here), and then I specialized in Fw190.

NOw I suck, but at least I suck way less than what I did.  

I felt tempted to quit in my first days here, but I felt too that this thing was a REAL good one...and stayed. Now I am proud on doing it  (although I have been through some hard times in the meantime   )

Do the same or you'll regret it later.

Really.  

   

<Braces himself for an onslaught of outrage by AH community>

as you see, your post was a REALLY good one ,and so we put here our thoughts and try to help you. No outrage here, as you did nothing to start it    

S! again. And hold on and keep trying!!!!


 

Originally posted by Westy:
I myself find that some nights here I'm on golden wings. And others, like last night, I'm cannon fodder for anyone who sneezes.

-Westy

LOL Westy   That poor sheep you trapped under your crashing P47's belly yesterday is calling for justice!!!  
Of course we all know you died in the crash    

Was a real fun run     S!  


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Renfield]

Not a direct response to the original post, but my vote and preference go to not cutting the difficulty one iota.

WWII planes were not light and they were not something you could just throw around the sky. Watch the WWII iron at any airshow and if they are doing aerobatics they will be big and smooth. You just can't make comparisons between a 51 or a Jug and a Cessna.

These planes were not easy to fly. In the "sims" people expect to be able to hop in and go fly (let alone fight) with little or no actual stick time. Do that in a real warbird and you are dead. Hell, do it in a Cessna and odds are you die. If you are lucky you'll get airborne... but land? I would bet against it.

The planes were hard to fly and hard to master but once you climb that curve you are one to be feared.

I say keep the difficulty where it is. So what if it takes a few attempts to finally take off and so what if the newbies don't win a dogfight because they can twitch faster but don't really appreciate the FM.

Dumb the sim down and it will be another Quake.

Not a flame at all. I just would like to see one online flight sim keep the realism level up and for God's sake, please, please no easy mode in the MA.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Obear, I hunderstand ur feeling, but as far as I'm concerned, my fun comes from this sim being realistic and hard to master. I don't realy like 'faster' sims.

Here keeping your energy and couple of tricks are the key, having to control ur impulses during the whole dogfight is my challenge and source of delectation.

I played most online and offline sims, my way of blowing off smoke is sweating for 5-10 min to achieve a kill rather than storming all other and killing like a wolf in a sheep barn. But it's my view and my pleasure, i respect yours.

If you feel that AH is not your cup of tea, then I encourage you to go have fun with others sims and leave this one alone. Janes WW2 Online, I don't know if the arena is still open but u may like it, pretty graphics, a 'fake advanced' FM and it's pure dogfighting, it never stops and it's pretty fast.

Hope that helps, have a great day!

[terracota]

Obear
I agree with you that this is the most difficult game I ever played, the learning curve is very high, and you have the advantage that you have experince from previous simulators, now just imagine how I feel that I never flied nothing, I have learned from zero, plane parts, physics, etc , in my 2 months now in Aces high .
but in my point of view I think this is one of the games I allways was looking for  
very hard: you really need to work and fly a lot.
have to many variables: yeah , I see I never kill or killed in the same way.

Imho this is the simulator for people who likes challenges and risk because if you start to play and get shoted every 1 minute you want to leave, but them I think ,ok if I was killed this way I will have to learn how can I beat this, and there you go ,the time pass and you see your self hocked with this game,
to me the most beatyfull of this game are 2 things: the community and the dificulty of the game, I just cant imagine what will happens to mee when the historical arenas come to life  

[ra]

Obear:

You sort of contradict yourself:

"Oh sure i got the hang of it ok, and im no amateur when it comes to flying. I fly for real and i know all about torque, etc."

"..So you power away and swing in for another kill, again you over shoot, that's ok but the second time you come to turn the stall horn sounds like a dyeing whale and if you don't turn with the minimal of stick movement your sent spinning to the ground. BOOM"

This second line makes it sound that you haven't got the hang of it. You blow an E advantage, then spin in.  We all auger from time to time, but this sounds like you are doing something wrong.

Your post is very reasonable, but you offer no scientific support for your main complaint about the different E retention characteristics between WB and AH.  I don't know which is more realistic either, but to me AH strikes me as more realistic, so I prefer it to WB.  You don't ask for a more realistic FM, just a more 'fast and furious' one.  That's fine too, but many of us came here specifically because the WB FM was getting stale.  The Turn-4-Ever(tm) e-retention lead to some ridiculous furballs.  I started playing AH as soon as the beta was released, and it took quite some time to get comfortable.  Every time I went back to play WB, the WB FM struck more and more game-like.  
If anything, I think the AH FM is still a bit dumbed down as you have to be very ham-fisted to lose control of your plane for more than a couple seconds.

Others have made similar posts as yours, they basically want to play AH, but with the WB FM.  I hope HTC sticks to their guns and lets WBers play WB and AHers play AH.

ra

[HaHa]

The biggest problem with the game is the "sensitivity" issue. You really MUST have an awesome joystick to fly worth a damn in this arena. With WB a good stick would help out but it wouldn't make a diff. between a good or bad pilot. However, in AH if your stick isn't "just right" then you'll fly like crap. I have an ok stick and I've messed extensively with the "rubber bands" but I still find the controls to be "uncontrollable" at times. Pull a little too hard even when going 400Mph and ***STALL*** horn.

One of my biggest problems with the game is the "trim". I hate having to dive onto an enemy, keep one hand on the keyboard and another on my joystick. I know very well that mr. fanatic with 15 buttons on his joystick can trim, control, and drink beer with it. Personally I find it a huge hassle that I think a lot of others don't like.

[Nash]

"Like anything else, the harder you work for success the sweeter it is when you finally attain it." - Ghosth

[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Hangtime]

LOL..

It ain't amatuer hour airplanes...  

Sure it's tuff.. but if playing a guitar wuz easy ther'ed be a half a million jimmi hendrix's.

Stick it out.. the satisfaction gleened from flying a reality based FM will pay back in dividends... the first time you shoot me down.. .  

Hang

[Pavel]

IMHO nothing easy is fun for very long.  That said, I have no problems at all with having a separate relaxed arena were newcomers aren't at such a disadvantage.  
Can one not simulate an "easy mode" simply by setting the joystick sensitivity so that the various control surfaces move only a portion of their full range even when the stick is pulled 100% a given direction?    

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by HaHa:
The biggest problem with the game is the "sensitivity" issue. You really MUST have an awesome joystick to fly worth a damn in this arena.

LOL Haha   I see that being able to afford a good set of stick&throttle make people a bit lazy  

Until last month I was flying with a 2 button+throttle Virtual Pilot yoke. And one of the buttons didnt work properly. Felt quite good except for snapshots, where the failing button and lack of hands made impossible to keep track of the con and fire at the same time.

Now I fly with a F16 combat Stick (THANKS SAW!!!!!) wich is a very nice stick but for sure is not "an awesome joystick to fly worth a damn in this arena."

I suck of course, but fer sure not because my stick.

IMHO Hangtime will excell with my ex-yoke, as Hristo ,as Torque ,as Wardog...as any good pilot here.

To be a good pilot one doesnt need anything else than good SA and ACM knowledge...and of course a lot of experience.

Sticks mean a little % here.

IMHO, of course  

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-21-2000).]

[easymo]

 Just a suggestion. You can find everything you mentioned. In a H2H free for all arena. Most happen at f1. So you dont have the long boreing flights over and over. Since everyone is right there, TnB planes and tactics are favored. If you get out of the mains constant banger or bangee syndrom. You might find you are not as bad as you think.

 There is no scoreing anyway. So you dont have to worry about how you do. Spend a week are so there, and your confadence will be a lot higher going back to the main.

[daddog]

<S> Obear!
Good thoughtful post.   I to have struggled with the flight model.  I can't really add to what any have said, but just encourage you to stick it out.  

We moved our squad over from Warbirds. I can say by far those that continued to fly "both" sim stuck with Warbirds. Those that gave Aces High a chance, and flew only that sim remained here.  The exception to that were those that could not do the 3D graphics.

Don't sit on the fence.
-------------------------
daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels
Snapshots
CM Schedule
   
Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

[AKSeaWulfe]

Obear, I think what you want is Aces High graphical representation but using Warbirds flight model. So you'd have Aces Birds(hehe)! :-)

Seriously though, give Aces High an honest attempt rather than thinking it would be better if it was relaxed more. You fly WarBirds because it boasts the "most realistic flight model", don't you? Then after that comes action then after that graphics then after that damage model(or some order but those are the main points I'm sure). I'm not trying to offend you, or anyone, just offering my opinion being an ex-WBer. Of course, it's been since 1.11r3(greatest version IMO!) since I've flown online. I've tried it out a lot offline and I don't think control surface drag is modelled?  It is here, but it may well be overdone, I can't tell. And to be honest, the biggest reason fights/furballs aren't as common(but they are EXTREMELY INTENSE!) is because it's flat rate here as opposed to p2p over in WB. People feel they can spend more time flying around enjoying the scenery(and forget to watch their 6 like I do when I'm climbing out) and look for a fight they can easily win rather than dive into a bunch of cons. There are plenty of fights that have a lot of TnBing in it, and lots of BnZing in it(myself, I like to BnZ and TnB the same, so you can often find me doing stupid things in furballs :-). It took me 4 tours to figure out a single defensive counter to an enemy diving on me from a superior position. I've been flying since beta tour 3 and I am absolutely horrible at Aces High(my ego is too big for my stick abilities!). Like most other people who posted in this thread, however, I find the fun in the challenge and constantly learning.

But, if you are looking for massive pure furballing, I'm sorry, but that's not a common event in here. You really should stay with WB if that's what you're after and if you are after a flight model that allows super e-retention(rather it's right or wrong). I'm not pro-AH or anti-WB, I think they are two different games(many will disagree but from my experiences they are very different).

Anyway, if you would sincerely like to learn a few defensive counters I can at the very least assist you by droning for you in the TA or by "attacking" you cold-guns in the TA and you can try out things. See what works and what doesn't.
email: weissdr1@yahoo.com
I'd recommend RAM though, he's a much better stick than I am(and he offered you assistance too I believe?).

Good luck Obear,
-SW

[Snoopi]

Post from a newbie...

I have flown AW2 n 3 and WB offline
I own EAW and Janes WW2 Fighters.
(always flown in most dificult mode)

That said:
I die all the time in AH.
Some days I can do well but most times I die.
But I am getting better.

Once when I was "Training" with Popeye, he asked my why I was flying the 109F.
Well now I like it and the zeke.
It's not the best planes to fly in a BnZ arena, but my SA sucks, and in these planes you need great SA.
I fly them because they are hard vs the G10's and p51s of the game.
They have great strengths and huge weaknesses.
When I duel..I love to have the enemy start on my six. It happened so often in the MA, that I want to get good at surviving that situation.

blah blah blah...sorry...

I guess my point is this:
TnB  vs BnZ
Yeah it's very hard, but that's what attracts me to it. If I kill a high uberspit with a zeke I feel I have really done something.  
It makes up for all the...huh ? wha ? oops..booom.  

But i can see the need for a SEPARATE easier arena (not easy..but easier).
Maybe even a TnB arena with the appropriate planes. (same hard FM tho)

It would be a smart way to bring more people into AH, which is good for us (more future MA pilots) and for HTC (more pocket cash) and for us (more development cash).

I flew my 2 weeks and in the beta.
and now only fly H2H.
When I find a company who needs an Oracle DBA
here, with my first paycheck you'll see me on fire in the MA.  

Obear...i think you should stay.
It'll get better.

S!

Regards, Snoopi

P.S
If you want to do better right away, just look for me and shoot me down, or at least wave as as i zoom by in my burning plane.

Maybe one day, I'm gonna be shooting Hangtime and Mitsu down ! Maybe.... just maybe..sigh...

[Obear]

Ok guys, what a nice and jolly bunch of chaps you are, i expected at least one idiot with his fingers on the ! key, but no, all nicely presented and thoughtful posts
Thanks.

Ok what i am sensing here is 2 things.....

1.. This game has attracted the more Hard core flight simmer, the ones who prefer to take off, check there air speed, flaps, rate of climb, etc., gain there alt, pick out there targets and then enter a quick thinking game of mid air chess. (No insult here btw)
They enjoy the game to the full and because it caters to there tastes and way of playing online, and because of this they have the game mastered.

2.. The same kind of person as above but thos who seem (by the postings here) to still be struggling with the game, but want to carry on regardless of the amount of effort it requires.

I think i understand that this game has been developed for the more serious simmer in mind.
This appears to be leaning more to the 'slower paced' end of the market, requiring more effort on the forward planing of each flight than the get in there, turn and burn end of the scale.

Ok i understand, i think i was a little out step with the kind of simulation this is supposed to be, like i have said i do fly for real but i prefer my on line fights to be just a little more fictional, enough to add a bit of spice and to gee the game up, but not too much as to make the sim retarded and GAME like, guess that's why WB's suites me so well, specially now they got rid of that stupid easy flight, now that was a bit over the top. (Never been in any aircraft were you can take a vertical stall to the limit and for the aircraft to nicely lower the nose all gentle and graceful lol)

That's why i was thinking of the possibility of a ...not easy arena as such but a toned down version, didn't want the MA to be turned down, after all that would be treading on allot of peoples toes, they like MA the way it is and that's just fine and dandy with me.

Well hell, ill continue to fly with my free 2 weeks and see were i get, if not ill shuffle my butt back to WB's lol

And if one day i have some spare monthly cash i may just run both AH and WB's and the new WWII online that's coming out (knowing my luck the flight engine will be just like AH lol)

Well, thanks all for a good post, you'll see me around for a couple of weeks and maybe more after that who knows.

P.S. Could you all help me a little while i am online with AH???   If you see me flying towards you could you please drop your air speed, fly straight and level, and keep it that way until your mysteriously taken back to the hanger in a pile of smoke!!!!

NO??  oh well worth a try.

laters all and thanks again!