AH combat vs Real Life

[davidpt40]

AH is a great sim.  Just want to get that out front.  But it seems to me that air combat in Aces High places emphasis on qualities that would be nearly worthless in real life.  Lets take a look-

1:  In Aces High, climb rate is extremely important.  Combat takes place so close to your airfield, any aircraft that has less than a 3k initial climb rate is suicide.- In real life, unless scrambling to intercept bombers, planes had a chance to climb to the altitude they wished.  In the ETO, high altitude combat was the norm.

2:  In AH, range doesn't matter.  I doubt many pilots take more than 50% fuel in even the La7 or 109.  Theres just no reason to.  Fuel=weight.  However, long range fighters are what won the air war in World War II (in the ETO/PTO anyways).

3:  Top speed on the deck-  Extremely important in AH.  But does anyone care that the P47 is the fastest piston plane at 35k?  Nope, theres just no reason to.

4: Bomb carrying ability of fighters-  We are starting to see the P51/P47 used a bit more because bombers are hard to use.  By the end of WW2, F4Us-P47s-P51s-P38s-F6Fs and other single engine fighters were doing tactical missions by the thousands.  This is probably the most realistic portrayal AH has.

[Miska]

Sounds like you are ready to start flying historical events

Also Tuesday and Thursday nights  (eastern time) in the Combat Theater, we try to run realistic mission profiles.  See you there.

[Lone Wolf]

Couple of observations.
If you don't want to engage at a low/disadvantageous altittude takeoff from a field to the rear.  Most pilots don't do this unless they are trying to get the alt advantage and realize that by taking off close to the action you may well end up in the mele at low alt while still climbing.  I would say this is close to what some pilot encountered (allied) in Operation Boldenplate-in WWII most pilots took off hundreds of miles from the action and had ample time to climb to alt.
Range is affected in a similar way-most people take off at forward bases so you are correct-range is not that important.  Course HT in his infinite wisdom could arrange for planes to only be available at certain bases (say spits and 109s in the rear) forcing those pilots to use fuel management skills, but I think the riot it would cause would be counterproductive.
If you don't want to be on the deck decline the chase.  ie  leave from the rear bases, climb  to alt, maintain you alt and if the enema extend to the deck keep your alt (unless you are searching for fifi!)
Just a few thoughts
LW

[davidpt40]

I thought Operation Bodenplatte was the name of the offensive where U.S. fighters attacked many German airbases.  I am probably mistaken (the name is German duh).

So what was the name of that allied operation?

[Widewing]

Originally posted by davidpt40
I thought Operation Bodenplatte was the name of the offensive where U.S. fighters attacked many German airbases.  I am probably mistaken (the name is German duh).

So what was the name of that allied operation?

Bodenplatte was a German operation, that while it achieved surprise, failed miserably.

Allied operations against Luftwaffe airfields began in earnest in March of 1944, when Doolittle released the 8th AF fighters to attack targets of opportunity while returning from escort missions. From that point on, there were no truly safe airfields anywhere in occupied western Europe.

My regards,

Widewing

[Lone Wolf]

Bodenplate was the German offensive (last one the Luftwaffe could muster) on Jan 1, 1945.  Another of Hitlers masterpieces was supposed to be held in conjunction with the Battle of the Bulge operation, but he changed it up.  Low level attack by the Germans on allied airbases.  Achieved surprise and some success on attacking the fields, but lost many aircraft and pilots-including many in leadership positions.
LW

[Pongo]

"1:  In Aces High, climb rate is extremely important.  Combat takes place so close to your airfield, any aircraft that has less than a 3k initial climb rate is suicide.- In real life, unless scrambling to intercept bombers, planes had a chance to climb to the altitude they wished.  In the ETO, high altitude combat was the norm.
"

Climb rate was still very important. Many Spit Pilots recount outclimbing FWs to evade them, The climb rate of the Zero vs the early US iron was also often noted. On the eastern front the 109s often had a climb advantage that they could maintain to keep the enemy below them..I think your mistaken in this point. Except for the Long rage US fighters whose enemies had to largley try to ignore them and press on to the bombers...climb rate is a very very important quality in ww2 fighters.

"
2:  In AH, range doesn't matter.  I doubt many pilots take more than 50% fuel in even the La7 or 109.  Theres just no reason to.  Fuel=weight.  However, long range fighters are what won the air war in World War II (in the ETO/PTO anyways).
"
Doesnt matter is a way harsh statement. If range doents matter why do people get real picky about the planes they fly when fuel is damaged at a field.  If your going to fly like a lawn dart dweeb range doensnt matter. What won the war in europ was an over whelming NUMBER of long range fighters defending bombers that had to be intercepted. What established the Germans with an empire spaning most of Europe where short range fighters...and it was short range fighters that stoped them in Britian and consumed them in russia.

"
3:  Top speed on the deck-  Extremely important in AH.  But does anyone care that the P47 is the fastest piston plane at 35k?  Nope, theres just no reason to.
"
No one in ww2 cared how fast it was at 35k either.  Its dive speed and fire power and even handling and long range and robustness where great attributes in WW2. and in Aces high.


"4: Bomb carrying ability of fighters-  We are starting to see the P51/P47 used a bit more because bombers are hard to use.  By the end of WW2, F4Us-P47s-P51s-P38s-F6Fs and other single engine fighters were doing tactical missions by the thousands.  This is probably the most realistic portrayal AH has."

Jabo in Fighters has always been a big factor in AH. But recent increase in its use has largely been of the suicide plunge type..which was obviosly a tactic in ww2.

Your post seems to be trying to draw attention or rationalize why the P47 and maybe the pony are not world beaters in AH but they where in ww2. In the case of the Pony the plane is a world beater in AH if you just have a little SA. In the case of the jug. Its probably not as effective here as ww2. But if you bring it to the battle with a 4 to 1 numerical supperiority and a very high standard of pilot training and aggression vs thier enemy then it will be just exaclty as effective here. The mid to late war US planes never fought at a numerical disadvantage.  If they had some of the qualities that they could get away with in the real war would have been pretty telling. Ponys and jugs trying to take off under a constant vulch is not a pretty sight...I bet they would have fielded AC with a lot higher climb rate if they had faced that. Some of the last US aircraft deployed specifically tried for very fast deck speeds vs kamakazi... The big US planes fit in real well with the war that the US waged on both sides of the world...but they would have been near useless for the war that their enemies were forced to fight or the war that the Soviets fought..they were not interceptors...

[davidpt40]

I'm sensing some hostility here (maybe I am just over-sensitive), so I am going to refute your points Pongo.

Climb rate was still very important. Many Spit Pilots recount outclimbing FWs to evade them, The climb rate of the Zero vs the early US iron was also often noted. On the eastern front the 109s often had a climb advantage that they could maintain to keep the enemy below them..I think your mistaken in this point. Except for the Long rage US fighters whose enemies had to largley try to ignore them and press on to the bombers...climb rate is a very very important quality in ww2 fighters.

F4Fs, P40s, P39s, and early F4Us all had lower climb rates than Japanese warplanes.  Yet tactics and top speed allowed the U.S. to prevail.  Altitude takes precedents over climb-rate in combat.  U.S. planes continued to have lower climb rates than their oposition well beyond World War II also.  From the P40e to the F86, even to the F4 Phantom.

Doesnt matter is a way harsh statement. If range doents matter why do people get real picky about the planes they fly when fuel is damaged at a field. If your going to fly like a lawn dart dweeb range doensnt matter. What won the war in europ was an over whelming NUMBER of long range fighters defending bombers that had to be intercepted. What established the Germans with an empire spaning most of Europe where short range fighters...and it was short range fighters that stoped them in Britian and consumed them in russia.

Why is it I see La7s and N1ks scrambling from from airfields with 25% fuel? Spit9s are pretty common plane too. Sometimes I see a few P51s, but not too many.  I can't think of a single large air battle over Europe where U.S. escort fighters werent OUTNUMBERED by Luftwaffe fighters.  Just because the U.S. had 800 or 900 fighters in England doesn't mean it could launch them for escort missions.  Check up on this, you will see that U.S. escort pilots were out-numbered and out-gunned most of the time.  This brings me to my next point-

No one in ww2 cared how fast it was at 35k either. Its dive speed and fire power and even handling and long range and robustness where great attributes in WW2. and in Aces high.

This is why early P47 groups climbed to 35k for every single mission to engage the Luftwaffe where the P47 had the biggest advantage.  The U.S. Air Force conducted a study on escort fighters and found that a plane was viable for escort duty ONLY if it was faster than the opposition.  This is why the P51 and P47 are such great planes.  They produced tremendous amounts of horsepower at high altitude while Fw190s and early 109s were wallowing at stall speed.

Your post seems to be trying to draw attention or rationalize why the P47 and maybe the pony are not world beaters in AH but they where in ww2.

I'm not 'trying' to do anything, I am rationalizing and I am drawing attention to why AH is filled with 'minority' aircraft.

he mid to late war US planes never fought at a numerical disadvantage.

I beg to differ.  The skies over Europe and the Pacific were mighty big, and I imagine more than a few U.S. pilots ran into big flights of Japanese and German aircraft.  Quite a few B29s in mid 45 were lost to Japanese fighters.  I don't think the U.S. was able to field larger numbers for every single mission.

[Lucchini]

Is AH a sim????
it seems to be an arcade! Why?

1) gunnery (lasergunnery, no more words....)
2) flight model (e-retention and stability)
3) planeset

Lucchini

[iceydee]

there's an answer to all of your points there - EVENTS... you just missed out on Midway, but there TOD and there's more big events to come...

[Shane]

Originally posted by davidpt40
Check up on this, you will see that U.S. escort pilots were out-numbered and out-gunned most of the time.  

uh-oh, now you stepped in it!!

[senna]

Realism arenas and mission oriented stuff. Who knows maybe the TOD stuff can fulfill the hopes of some of you. I've never even participated in one of those because Im sort of  a random player. Play whenever I have time rather than plan a play time.

Anyways fights at 35k and fiting 500-1000 feet off the deck. Everyone knows that the high alt fights are rare in AH but then AH is a game, no matter how realistic its modeled or its SIM qualities. It ultimately depends on the person or people who play. Myself, Ive stated before that I always take 100% fuel and I fly long sorties, like real missions. The instant action style fiting at low alt doesnt interest me. From high up I usually observe alot of the fights down below. Most of the players like instant action, thats fun for them and the game allows it to be possible. In real life the objectives are different and the objectives of the gamers are also different (to have fun right now). Some like to fly and die every ten minutes. Shrug, I dont ask where my beef or eggs come from, I just eat it.

BTW: For the new flyers. There is a difference in fighting 0-10,000, 10,000-20,000, and then 20,000-30,000. Fighting above 30,000 is very difficult for most aircraft, more like surfing really if you can stay on the board.


Anyways to all players who enjoy the game . Push them for better graphics.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by davidpt40

F4Fs, P40s, P39s, and early F4Us all had lower climb rates than Japanese warplanes.  Yet tactics and top speed allowed the U.S. to prevail.  Altitude takes precedents over climb-rate in combat.  U.S. planes continued to have lower climb rates than their oposition well beyond World War II also.

Why is it I see La7s and N1ks scrambling from from airfields with 25% fuel? Spit9s are pretty common plane too. Sometimes I see a few P51s, but not too many.  

The real-world stuff is clipped out, since I never personally flew in ww2.

Climb rate is most definitly important in combat.  Climb rate is closely related to accelleration, and a big climb rate advantage makes it easy to maintain an advantage.  The top speed of the US fighters was only important because there was a huge gap.  For energy fighting, climb rate and accelleration are the most important factors in the plane.  (Thrust to weight)

Fly a 109g10 in combat sometime, and you'll understand what a climb rate advantage can do.  In a g10, often simply hitting alt-x and turning on wep can work to evade someone chasing you.  The 109g10 is the best free energy fighter in the game.  In any co-e engagement, it is trivial to gain an altitude advantage on your opponent.

As for fuel, if you take off in an n1k2, spit9, la7, or just about anything with 25 fuel, you're going to last 5-10 minutes.  Thats enough fuel if you plan on getting shot down quickly, but isn't enough to land any kills with.  As for the p51's, I expect you're sticking the on-the-deck furballs, where you'd have to be an idiot to take a p51.  (Though plenty do end up in them)
Take a look at this:
http://www.innomi.com/planes.php?sortby=kill_sort
And tell me how little the p51 is used.

You see spit9s, la7s, and n1k2's used for scrambling from fields, because they were designed as interceptors.  It's what they're built for.  The p-51 is not an interceptor, it's a long range escort fighter, using it as an interceptor is using it against it's strengths.

I think this is just a case of someone believing that the P-51D was -the- ultimate fighter of ww2 and needs to lay off the history channel.

[Fariz]

Before judging anything you need to be better informed.

[ccvi]

Originally posted by davidpt40
2:  In AH, range doesn't matter.  I doubt many pilots take more than 50% fuel in even the La7 or 109.  Theres just no reason to.  Fuel=weight.  However, long range fighters are what won the air war in World War II (in the ETO/PTO anyways).

The 109G10 can run longer on WEP than on 50% fuel...