Author Topic: Ironic...  (Read 821 times)

funked

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Ironic...
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2000, 03:53:00 PM »
Pongo, you said it bud.  <S>

Offline fdiron

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Ironic...
« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2000, 04:09:00 PM »
Which side had more aces?  Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it?  So which side had more aces?

Offline iculus

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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2000, 04:34:00 PM »
RAM,

You're not much for making friends, are you?

IC

Offline -ammo-

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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2000, 04:50:00 PM »
RAM, You always do a post good, add a little spice  you know Try to shake that chip off your shoulder before posting

Up until early 44, the LW truly ruiled the skies over western Europe. In January 44 Eisenhower came to England from the Med theater to assume his position as Supreme Commander for the invasion of western Europe. He brought with him air team, which consisted of several commanders with whom the General had worked with and felt comfortable with. Two of them had an important impact on JG26 and the Jagdwaffe. One, Air Vice Marshall Harry Broadhurst, took command of the fighter component of the new Second Tactical Air Force, which contained many squadrons formerly belonging to Fighter Command (RAF). The British Fighters were relieved of much of their escort responsibility  as they took up their new task, which was to help soften up the invasion coast. The old warning "achtung spitfeuer!!" once again chilled the German Fighter pilots along the the Channel coast, as the spitfire formations dropped to the deck in search of aerial targets.

Another importanmt member  of Eisenhowers air team was Lt. General James Doolittle, who took Generals Eakers job of commander of the 8th AF. He made it plain  that Aliied air superiority was a prerequisite  for the sucessful invasion of the continent. Since the invasion was scheduled for late spring, the air commanders would have to reorder their priorities, and fast. The allioes could no longer wait for the bomber Generals to fulfil their dream of defeating Germany by strategic bombing alone. In Doolittle, Ike had the perfect airman  for the task ahead. Doolittle, a reservist, had no particular loyalties to the theories of Srat Bombing. Always a pragmatist, he was quick to throw out policies that did not contribute to his immediate goal of defeating the LW. American escort doctrine soon changed; the fighters were ordered to patrol  fixed zones along the bombers track instead of escorting specific bomber wings. This subtle change in tactics permitted tghe escort formation leaders to concentrate on finding enemy fighters, rather than the "correct" bomber fiormation-- bomber units that missed rendevous were left to fend for themselves.

This was taken from--"JG26--TOP GUNS OF THE LUFTWAFFE" by Donald Caldwell.  It doesnt give the specifics but you can see that the change in doctrine and had alot to do with the success of allied pilots, the same type of success that the JG's enjoyed form 1939 on. Early on--the LW had the superior AC in all aspects on both fronts anfd the superior doctrine. They were also ordered by Goering himself to NOT attack RAF or USAAF fighters, but to concentrate on the Bomber raids. The JG's would sortie a lightening attack against the bombers and dive away before the escort had the oppertunity to defend. The 56th FG (Zemkes unit) were using their own tactics which were not the same as Fighter Commands and because of this they enjoyed some early success in early 43 on. They were a "loose" formation anjd used this to bounce the 190's and 109s out ahead of the bomber formation while the The JG's were forming up for the standard High 12 ock attack on the bombers.
Commanding Officer, 56 Fighter Group
Retired USAF - 1988 - 2011

Offline Lizard3

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« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2000, 04:58:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron:
Which side had more aces?  Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it?  So which side had more aces?

According to Mike Spick Luftwaffe Fighter Aces ISBN0-8041-1696-2 : "Whereas a tally of 30 victories was exceptional among British and American fighter pilots, a mere 35 German pilots were credited with the destruction of no fewer than 6,848 aircraft in air combat- an average of almost 196! Two of them had actually topped the 300 mark!"
...
"By the five-victory convention, the luftwaffe produced something like 2,500 aces in all;..."



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Offline Torque

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« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2000, 04:59:00 PM »
 

Offline LLv34_Snefens

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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2000, 06:31:00 AM »
Just a little quote I read somewhere. Dunno how correct or relevant it is, but here goes:

"In WWII 5% of the pilots made 95% of the kills"

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Offline Kieren

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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2000, 09:02:00 AM »
Hartmann had how many sorties before his first victory? How long was an American pilot's tour before he was rotated out of the theatre?  

Not a slam, RAM, but this is apples and oranges...

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2000, 11:07:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by RAM:
The finest pilots in WWII were Germans...and one little Japanese guy called Saburo Sakai.

Finland had the highest amount of aces per capita in WW2.  Well, actually up to this date, I suppose.  

Eino Ilmari "Illu" Juutilainen scored 94 victories in 437 sorties, making him the highest scoring non-german pilot in Europe. It is said that Juutilainen was never hit by an enemy pilot's bullet.
 

The 109 G-2 in Aces High, "MT-222", was Juutilainen's plane, in which he scored 17 victories.  

Don't forget the little nation up north, RAM.  

Camo

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[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 06-11-2000).]
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2000, 11:18:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by fdiron:
Which side had more aces?  Germany kept its Aces flying until they died, but the U.S. rotated its Aces back to the states to train new pilots didnt it?  So which side had more aces?

fdiron.
had a top US pilot been in constant combat whith the germans from dec 7 41 till may 1945 it is exctremly unlikly he would have seen enough of them to get over 100 kills.
We could get into the production figures if you like but when you add up the Russian, British, American production figures it really is rediculous how many planes opposed the Germans.


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RAM

Offline Minotaur

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« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2000, 11:35:00 AM »
Allied pilots had, at times, a very high difficulty in even finding an airborne target.  I know a man who flew the P-51D during WW2.  He never even saw a LW plane airborne.  He is not an ace.

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[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 06-11-2000).]

Offline Kieren

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« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2000, 12:04:00 PM »
What we need to find is a Wildcat pilot- then we can see if he saw any Japanese a/c.  

Seriously, people are people, and to buy into the concept that one country has inherently better pilots than another is to buy into the "ubermensch" concept, and we all know where that got us...  

+vadr+

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« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2000, 12:13:00 PM »
A remarkably civil thread, given the controversial topic.

Most of the points have been covered, so I don't have a lot to add. I will say this though:

If you want to judge the quality of a fighter pilot, you should probably look at his 'strike rate'. That is, how many aircraft he shot down over a given number of missions.

The highest SR that I am aware of indeed belongs to Scheel. As far as I know, he's the only pilot with a SR that is greater than 1. However, a substantial number of pilots of all nations stack up favorably against the Jagdflieger when using this method. Bob Johnson especially comes to mind.

Sure, this is balanced in favor of pilots who operate in a target-rich environment, but I can't think of a more pragmatic way to measure the effectiveness of a fighter pilot.

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Vadr
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Offline Pongo

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« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2000, 05:57:00 PM »
Vadr that assumes he sees as many bad guys per mission as the next guy. A poor assumption.
Unfortunalty the only way we have to judge fighter pilots is by how many planes they shot down.  In that sence we can only compare allied pilots to allied pilots and german pilots to german pilots.
We have no qualms procalaiming someone the "Greatest Allied Ace of WW2"....
of course we cant change the scale just because we dont like the result.
The top (many) greatest aces in history are Germans...Doesnt mean they would kick all those allied aces buts. Doesnt mean they were better at anything. But they are the greatest aces by the only standard that the PILOTS used.
History is cruel somtimes. But there is no twist or stretch that will allow you to proclaim a 38 kill pilot supperior to a 352 kill pilot. In one case all doubt is anwered in the other you have to ask, would he have survived against supperior odds? for thousand of missions? One is proven. He has done what the other did and alot more. The other is proven in every enviroment and situation his country faced in the air. But Many of the challanges the 352 kill guy faced the 38 kill guy never did. Do we assume he would have presevered? or do we give credit where credit is due. Being an ACE is about destroying aircraft. That is all it is about. Do we say that Joe Schmo who flew in Canada in 1973 and never shot down a thing is an equal pilot to JEJohnson?
No we dont. He never got the kills. Cunningham was an ace that shot down lots of planes based on the number he engaged. Do we say he is as good or better then Richtofen?
Kills are kills. Or else we have to take the easy ones away from Allied aces too and McCambells score plummets and so do many p51 aces scores.


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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM

Hans

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Ironic...
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2000, 07:11:00 PM »
Guys...GUYS!

Of all those hundreds of planes shot down by aces....how many were fighters?  How many were cargo planes or ground attack planes?

I would give a guy who shot down 5 fighters more credit than another guy who shot down 30 light bombers or cargo planes.

Hans.