Ironic...

[Pongo]

Hans.
Which ace are you talking about. Most of Hartmans kills where fighters and IL2s with many Pe2s thrown in. This was typical for russian front pilots. That is what the Russians flew and that is what was shot down.
These guys were not flying P51s. They did not get to go behind the lines and nock down Transport planes. I doubt that any of the top 5 german aces got any "transport planes".
Light bombers....is the stormovick a light bomber? That term is meaningless in WW2.
Interesting that you deride the losses of transport planes. As far more allied kills were made against German transports than visversa. Maybe at arnhem the allies lost some dakotas to fighters but the allies were pretty good about establishing air supperiortiy befor they sent the C47s in.

You seem to be in denial about the nature of the German scores. The western allies were as well and immediatly set about estabilishing the authenticity of the high kill totals after the war. There accuracy was established to be at least as high as the allies. In fact many american scores were adjusted down by them after the war(some near 20 kill pilots moving down to less then ace) But the german claims held.
Get comfortable with the rediculous totals of the german aces.

If you want to be critical of the german victory claims the best way to do so is to ask how many British trucks Marseille destroyed, how many airfields he straffed how many fuel dumps he strafed.
The answer is few if any. He was there to hunt planes his wingman was there to count the kills. The German people adored him and gave him recognition and glory. Meanwhile the men he preyed on destroyed the Africa corps from the air. They carried on to their targets and helped inflict a terrible defeat on the Germans. They harrassed the supply lines and destroyed the fuel dumps. This is the real purpose of air power. Not to exist in itself and gain glory for its elite best. But to atack the enemy from the air and hinder his ability to wage war.
Taken in that light. Which is exactly the light that the Allies viewed it from. Who was the more effective?
History has voted in a conclusive manner the value of 200 kill aces vs the value of a rationalized tactical air plan. I know how the german troops on the ground would have voted.
But the star of africa shot down 158 of the best men that the allies could send against him. No historical revisionism will change that. Every one has been corilated against allied records.

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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM

[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 06-12-2000).]

[Kats]

Speaking of Marseille (cheap plug otw) you can read more of him on my Web site.

There is a bio and interviews which I transcribed.

 http://jg27.org   click on "Marseille"

Just a PS, it is pretty much agreed that Marseille gets the nod as Ace of Aces (even Hartmann gives the nod to Marseille) but if you study "Buzz" Beurling's record and biography, it is very spooky the similarities between the Canadian and the German - almost to the point if that you read one, you have read the other. It certainly blew me away.

[eye]

Countries with the best pilots of ww2. 1 theGermans by a wide margen 2 The finns What they did with the 109 buffalo and italian planes was awsome. 3 the russians they had to fight the best and from mid 42 till 45 fought on semi equal terms. 4 the japanese The top of them were as good as any in ww2. They were handicaped by the zero from mid 43. Japanese industry let them down. Bad motors weak wings and a lack of a good supercharger design.

[Nath-BDP]

heh, I'd say the Zero was obsolete by February 12th '43 when the F4U scored its first victory with VMF-124.

Also, how did the confirmation system work with all these countries besides the US and Britain? Did they just get credited with a kill by claiming that they shot an a/c down or were there other precedures? I know the Germans used gun cameras at times, but not the Japanese and Russians.

[Minotaur]

Pongo;

Well spoken!  Rejoincing your battles (or your Heros) does not win a war.


Eye;

As usual, I have no clue where you are coming from....

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew

"I have returned"
Mitzu

[Pongo]

Eye.
I am not sure your point except that I think its wrong....
The best "pilots" per capita of the war were likly Italian. They concentrated on acrobatics to the exclusion of shooting and tactics. The best russians also greatly impressed the Germans with their "Piloting" skill.
As far as who were the best "Fighter Pilots".
thats easy.
pick which airforce you want to take on.

1944 German
1944 Russian
1944 Japanese
1944 American
1944 USA
1944 Finish
1944 British

The last force you chose to engage are the best fighter pilots of WW2.
I take the Americans.

Aggressiveness, equipment, training, numbers
they had it all. Thats why they destroyed the two most powerful air powers in the world circa 1941...

They would have done the same to anyone else in the world.

Some times its the over dog thats best.



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CO
Sturm Crows

[humble]

Most of the high points have been hit...The major reasons the german scoring was so high is as follows:

1) very high contact per sortie rate
2) the tactical doctrine employed
3) the fly till you die policy
4) the pilot "recovery" factor

I'll add one more, the germans had tremendous experience in the spanish civil war...unmatched since most of the russian vets were purged by stalin.

On a personal note I think it's impractical to think any one side had the "best" pilots...equipment, fortunes of war, tactical doctrine all had an effect. In my mind Saburo Sakai far exceeded any other pilot in WW2.

[lushka]

I have to agree with hans to some extent.  Yes, the germans shot down mostly fighters, but what were those fighters doing?  The were flying escort.  A much different proposition than the fighter sweep or interception.  Most of the time, especially late war, allied pilots were prohibited from following germans down to the deck.  Escorting is a crappy business in RL, and even the germans suffered very high losses when they did it in the bob.  So I agree with most of the reasonable posts here, that target saturation and total # of sorties made a big difference, but I would add that you should also take into account mission.  The luftwaffe spent most of the war from 41-42 on flying interceptions were they were almost guaranteed contact, whereas the allies were principly concerned with bombing the crap out of the enemy and avioding contact was always a priority.  Given the outcome, I would say allied stratigy was more effective than axis tactics.

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"If we weren't intended to eat animals, why are they made of meat"

-Krasni Lushka

[Lizard3]

 

Originally posted by lushka:
Yes, the germans shot down mostly fighters, but what were those fighters doing?  The were flying escort.  

Actually, they just didnt shoot down so many transports. Alot of what they shot down were heavily armed bombers. The Americans were flying escort true, but they were trying to engage the Germans, who were trying to avoid(mostly) the fighters and engage the bombers.

 

A much different proposition than the fighter sweep or interception.  Most of the time, especially late war, allied pilots were prohibited from following germans down to the deck.  

Only while still attached from the bomb group. Once they were released, they were on free for all flights, instructed to straff anything that moved. They frequently had intelligence on what airfeilds were in use along their route and would either try to catch LW plans taking off and landing, or just straff the heck out of them.

 

..whereas the allies were principly concerned with bombing the crap out of the enemy and avioding contact was always a priority.  

I have to totally disagree. From what I've read, contact with the enemy was sought. Especially once the escorts had range to target. It was allied policy to destroy the LW at every opportunity. Bombers were good LW magnets.

Originally posted by Dune:
If Rall had been born in Dallas and flew with the 357th FG and Meyer had been born in Hamburg and flew with JG 77, who's to say that Meyer wouldn't have had 250 kills and  Rall wouldn't have had 20?

I think Meyer would've ended up in a concentration came, point is mute.

IMHO the great pilots lived, the unlucky ones didnt make it.
Anyone read the interview with Joe Foss over at dogfighter.com? Great reading, the man is a real "character"
Liz out
p.s. no harm intended, just ernest debate.

[lushka]

I am up for a little debate, as long as we keep it friendly.  

"The Americans were flying escort true, but they were trying to engage the Germans, who were trying to avoid(mostly) the fighters and engage the bombers."

My point was that the germans were flying from a total advantage in that they knew where the enemy was and controlled when and how the attack would happen.  The escort fighters sole mission while the were attached was to protect the bombers, not to kill german fighters.  If the germans disengaged, the escorts had done their job.

"Only while still attached from the bomb group. Once they were released, they were on free for all flights, instructed to straff anything that moved. They frequently had intelligence on what airfeilds were in use along their route and would either try to catch LW plans taking off and landing, or just straff the heck out of them."

You are referring to the period after d-day.  Before d-day, the escort fighters didn't have the range to escort the bombers all the way to the target, let alone loiter around after they were released.  It is also similar to the problems the lw faced in the bob in that the escort fighter is constantly watching his fuel gauge and thinking about the egress.  These things are irrelevent to us in AH, but weighed heavily on the pilots who were there.

"I have to totally disagree. From what I've read, contact with the enemy was sought. Especially once the escorts had range to target. It was allied policy to destroy the LW at every opportunity. Bombers were good LW magnets."

Again, only after d-day, at least in northern europe.  My point is simply that the LW had a huge advantage in terms of scoring kills in that they were fighting a defensive air campaign.  To the allies including the russians, for the most part, destroying the lw was a secondary aim.  Yes, of course they were meant to seek out the lw, but only after their primary mission was achieved.  The lw, for their part, wouldn't turn up for dedicated allied fighter sweeps.  

"I think Meyer would've ended up in a concentration came, point is moot."

Quite right.  

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"If we weren't intended to eat animals, why are they made of meat"

-Krasni Lushka

[Dune]

Point taken.  I hadn't thought of the fact that Meyer was Jewish (not that I know for certain that he was).

OK, let me ask the same question, just put in MacDonald's name, or Goebel's or Anderson's or Preddy's or any other US ace.  Or Johnson or Pattle or Malan or etc., etc.  Change their name to any German name you please.  Their skills would stay the same.

Then the question is most certaintly not moot.  My point is still the same.  An superior pilot from one country would probably have had similar results had he flown for a different one.  (Provided of course he survived long enough.)  

If the war was fought again, who's to say a lucky shot wouldn't have killed Rall, Hartman, Bong, Marseille, Malan, Sakai or Gabreski any other ace on his first mission.  No matter how good they were, all of them had luck on their side at some point.  Even if it ran out later.  Hell, Rall was shot down several times.  He had the tip of his finger blown off by a .50 cal round  6 inches to the right or left could've killed him.

Given the right amount of luck so that they lived long enough, any of these men, with their abilities, would've been able to score.  No matter where.  Fate or karma or whatever put these men in the situations they were in.  

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Lt Col Dune
X.O. 352nd Fighter Group
"The Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney"

"Credo quia absurdum est." (I believe it because it is unreasonable)
- The motto of the Republic of Baja Arizona

[Pongo]

While there are some advantages in national temperment that probably aided the Germans somewhat, I agree.
I disagree however about the objective of daylight bombing. One of the big things that they were trying to accomplish was to draw out the LW. Thats what Rodeos and Ruhbarbs were for. They were not intended to bring the Germans to their knees but to draw out the LW. Which seems to tbe the oppisite of what is being said here.

[Karnak]

Its very simple.  The reason the top German (in particular), Finnish and Japanese aces all have much higher (2 times+) scores than their Allied opponents is because they were flying in a target rich environment, e.g. they were losing and losing badly.  To suggest that Germans, Finns or Japanese are naturaly superior is simply rasism.  If the Americans, British or Russians had been in a situation where they were facing those kinds of numbers, they too would have 100+ kill aces.

The idea that anything is taken away from the German, Finnish or Japanese aces by pointing this out is also rediculous.  Those pilots were VERY good at what they did.

Sisu

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by JENG:
ram but you should cool down a bit...

LOL, it is impossible, he can't. If you know a bit of genetics you should know that most of the spanish have a magnufacturing defect. They are born with the WEP switch stuck in the ON possition and no throttle control