Author Topic: uberflak effect of patches on flight models?  (Read 1523 times)

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« on: January 12, 2001, 09:37:00 AM »
could the total loss of most torque effects be explained by this?
wierd performance oddities and iregularities?
changes to the FM that just somehow happen?
there is wierdness in the fm.
many planes are getting further from the charts posted on AH in terms of speed, climb and maneuverability.
yet HTC hasn't touched the flight models since 1.04

has the frame rate optimizations accidentally removed certain effects and changed flight models the way it made flak and 88mm insane?

Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Ripsnort

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27260
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2001, 09:49:00 AM »
(Scooby Doo impression "Huh"?

Offline Yeager

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10167
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2001, 09:51:00 AM »
Ruh Roh  :P

Yeager
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline flakbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 867
      • http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2001, 11:21:00 AM »
Actually before P4 I was having a blast. But once P4 popped into existance my machine is having siezures. Small field w/clouds? 5FPS. Used to get 11-15FPS. 88's, 5", and 40mm now track my fuzzy butt until I'm a small puff of smoke in the sky. FR has dropped. And on top of that I think the F6F and F4U models are mixed/swaped.

Thank gods I've still got 1.04P5 on this thing. Fewer bugs, better FR, and 88's that are actually friendly!

-----------------------
Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond

 

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2001, 11:28:00 AM »
what strikes me is the lack of P-factor. there is virtually no asymetrical prop loading at high AoA in AH. and what p-factor is present has been what seems accidentally reversed. the trim implementation and scaling seams out of whack. currently all single engine aircraft rudders need left trim or left rudder to stay coordinated with standard clockwise rotating props. it's common knowledge that a good bit of right rudder is needed in real life warbirds and all clockwise rotating single engines to maintain coordinated flight during takeoff and when flying at a high angle off attack.

its very odd to say the least.

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-12-2001).]
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline CRASH

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 186
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2001, 11:36:00 AM »
According to ht, torque load is accurate, however, the slipstream that in rl spirals around the plane and pushes on the vertical stab is not currently modeled, and it's that slipstream effect that has the greater effect on yaw at take off than engine torque. I'm not sure why you feel engine torque is not modeled.  If you come in for a landing nice and slow with the engine throttled back to 25% or so and then come up on the power to adjust (as if aproach is low) the plane definately rolls....sudden increases in power are definately destablizing.

CRASH  

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2001, 11:40:00 AM »
torque effect (a rolling force) (newtons law) is modelled when in steady state power just fine. changes in power and the resulting action-reaction is pretty tame.

asymetrical prop loading (a yawing force)(p-factor) caused by flying at higher angles of attack is modelled oddly and its effects are reversed.



[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-12-2001).]
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Nath-BDP

  • Guest
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2001, 12:02:00 PM »
just be aware that HTC can do whatever they wish to the flight models without having to patch the game or telling us about it.

funked

  • Guest
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2001, 12:55:00 PM »
currently all single engine aircraft rudders need left trim or left rudder to stay coordinated with standard clockwise rotating props.

false

Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2001, 02:59:00 PM »
Citabria.
I just double checke P factor, it is modeled in the correct direction. My guess is you are feeling the gyroscopic change which is in the opposite direction of P Factor.


CRASH: I never stated we do not model slip stream effects, we do , all I said was its a piece I've been doing more research and might implement in a different form at some point.

HiTech

[This message has been edited by hitech (edited 01-12-2001).]

Offline hblair

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4052
      • http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/mainpage.htm
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
P factor sometimes get to me when I play while drinking beer. The more beer, the more the P factor comes into play.

Thanks for clarifying that HT...

 

Offline StSanta

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2496
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2001, 06:17:00 PM »
lol hblair is my kinda guy

He has the most sfiensific esplatation!

Cheers man!
<drinks more beer>



------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

"I am the light at the end of your sorry little tunnel." - A. Eldricht

Offline Citabria

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2001, 12:19:00 AM »
thanks HiTech.

here's what i understand so far

Gyroscopic Action(precession) this effect is based on one of the properties that apply to any object rotating in space, even a rotating airplane propeller.
All practical applications of the gyroscope are based upon two fundamental properties of of gyroscopic action:
1. Rigidity in space
2. Precession (the one important to this discussion)
Precession is the resultant action or deflection or deflection of a spinning rotor when deflecting force is applied to its rim.
the rotating propeller of an airplane makes a very good gyroscope and thus has similar properties.
anytime a force is applied to deflect the prop out of its plane of rotation, the resulting force is 90 degrees ahead of and in the direction of application. this causes a pitching moment a yawing moment or a combination of the two depending on the point at wich the force was applied.
the magnitude of this moment depends on several variables. one is the amount of force applied. as a result of gyroscopic action any yawing around the vertical axis results in a pitching moment. Any pitching around the lateral axis  results in a yawing moment. this effect has always been associated with tailwheel aircraft and most often occurs when the tail is being raised during takeoff roll causing a yawing moment to the left on clockwise rotating props.

conversely if an aircraft begins a climb from level flight the force applied to the spinning propeller will be at the bottom of the prop. then deflected 90 degrees clockwise resulting in a yawing moment to the right. the size of the moment would be dependent upon the force used to begin the climb. however once a stabilized climb is established and the force has ceased this effect is negated and the effects of p-factor wich cause a left yawing moment take hold. yet even the asymetrical prop loading can be categorized as a force acting on the right side of the propeller disturbing its plane of rotation. hence deflected 90 degrees clockwise produces a pitching moment. however the overall effects of P-factor are much more significant in terms of yaw due to unequal thrust.


Asymmetric Propeller Loading(P-factor)
the effects of P-factor ussually occur when the airplane is flown at high angles of attack. ie. takeoff turns and climbs.
asymmetrical loading of the prop simply means  that the load on the upward moving blade is different from the load on the downward moving propeller blade.
when an airplane is flying at a high angle of attack (ie: the propeller axis inclined upwards from the direction the aircraft is moving) the thrust generated by the downward moving blade is much larger than the thrust created by the upward moving blade.
this is due to the downward moving blade meeting the oncoming relative wind at a greater angle of attack and velocity than the upward moving blade.
since the propeller blade is an airfoil, increased angle of attack and velocity mean increased lift, or in the case of the propeller blade, more thrust.
thus the downward moving blade on the right side has more thrust than the upwards moving blade, causing the airplane to yaw to the left.
at low speeds and/or when the airplane is maneuvering and pulling High G loads the yawing tendancy is greater because the airplane is at a high angle of attack.
as the airspeed is increased and the aircraft is not pulling G's  the airplanes angle of attack is reduced, the asymmetrical loading decreases and the yawing tendancy is decreased.


then there is the good old Torque reaction
this effect is based on newtons third law of motion which states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
most airplane propellers rotate  in a clockwise direction. this produces a force that tends to roll the airplane counterclockwise about its longitudinal axis.
this reaction can be understood by visualizing a rubber bad powered model airplane.
wind the rubber band up so that when released it will rotate the prop clockwise.
if the fuselage is released while the propeller is held, the fuselage  will rotate in a counterclockwise direction.
This effect of torque reaction is the same in a real propeller drvien airplane, except that, instead of the propeller being held by hand, its rotation is resisted by air.
Torque reaction is stronger when power is significantly advanced while the airplane is flying at slow airspeed.


additional effects are the spiralling slipstream wich causes a left yawing moment greatest at low speeds (clockwise prop) the slipstream from the prop spirals back around the fuselage and strikes the left side of the vertical stabilizer and rudder. at low speedsand high power the spiral is very compact and powerful. as speed increases the spiral elongates and the flow along the fuselage becomes more equal.

also for multiengine aircraft with wing mounted propeller driven engines there is the effects of the accelerated slipstream (also known as induced airflow). a substantial amount of lift is derived from the propellers spiraling slipstream as it passes across the area of the wing behind the propeller. the effect is not apparent on single engine airplanes with a centerline mounted engine.

in summary:
gyroscopic precession: potential for both yaw and pitching moment depending on where the force applied yaw and/or pitch

p-factor: asymetrical thrust causing a yawing moment when the axis of the propellers rotation is not parallel to the aircrafts direction of travel through the air. caused by high angles of attack. yaw

torque reaction: roll

spiraling slipstream: yaw

accelerated slipstream: roll is induced if an engine is inoperative or power output is changed. lift is lost on one side while not on the other.


phew. that was a lot of writing        

I believe p-factor is to weak.
also torque effect from changes in power at low speed is not powerful enough.

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 01-13-2001).]
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Dingy

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
      • http://www.33rd.org
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2001, 08:04:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager:
Ruh Roh  :P

Thats *NOT* Scooby Doo...thats Astro from the Jetsons.  

-Ding


Offline hitech

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12425
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
uberflak effect of patches on flight models?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2001, 09:36:00 AM »
Ok Citabria. F4u1d flying at 150 MPH 5 deg AOA millitary power, 2750 RPM. How many foot pounds of torque in the left yaw direction should be produced by P Factor?

HiTech