a problem with behaviour.....

[hazed-]

Today another annoying occourance made me realise there might have to be some system to stop utterly stupid behaviour in AH.

Basicall it was a player dive bombing the CV with lancasters. but doing it in such a way as to purposefully suicide in order to garentee a hit.It ruined the fun being had by other players who were busy fighting in a more realistic manner, ie trying to bomb with dive bombers or torpedos.

whilst i understand some players dont really care about this sort of behaviour Im sure im not alone in thinking this sort of thing is what i play a more serious game to avoid.

If I wanted to play flight sims like a shoot em up there are plenty of much CHEAPER ways to do it.I dont blame HTC in any way for this sort of thing and im sure they must hate it as much as we do.

The answer? well it may not be the answer but how about if we use a method to stop the release of bombs from bombers which were certainly not designed for dive bombing?

I was recently reading an account of the he177 by capt brown (the famous RAF test pilot) in which he descibes the rediculous angles of dive the germans tried to encorperate into their designs.
He mentions that typical dive bomb angles were no where near vertical in the big bombers. 60 degrees he describes as ludicrous for the structure of these huge aircraft.

well how about we limit the dive angle release? how about if you exceed a certain angle the bombs refuse to budge?

Bombers designed to dive bomb or more capable of manouvers like the a20g or like the ju88 could have a higher angle or even no limit but at least this would stop lancasters being used for the suicide job?

If the player wants to try a shallow dive bomb in a realistic type of attack (and risk flak etc realistically) then they can still do so but it would stop these idiots diving in vertically and dropping 14 000lbs of bombs all over the fleet.

I realise im in no position to demand anything here but I have to say this:

I am paying to play AH and i feel the silly types of behaviour like suicide attacks etc are spoiling my enjoyment.I am not threatening anything but it should be realised that the more 'silly' the behaviour becomes in the arenas the less it seems like a simulator and the less i want to play it.Just lately Ive seen so much of this sort of thing that im beginning to hope for new arena.MA is becoming so far from the typical 'WW2 immpression i have(ie like the films etc) that I worry im losing interest in AH.
Hopefully the mission arena will be the saving grace here? I really hope so.

anyhow I hope HTC are trying to come up with ways to deter gamey behaviour. Im a bit unsure though if HTC can afford to worry about guys like me who want a more realistic enviroment when their aim must be to get as many customers as possible but I really feel that losing the oldschool sim types for the sake of a few gamers who play this sim like a shootem up will only hurt AH.

sorry for the complaint but i had to say something, its getting too much for me to stay quiet about it.If anyone agrees, nows the time to let HTC know.If theres not too much response to this then I guess it means im alone in my gripe but i cant believe other people dont get annoyed by it also.

anyhow let htc know your veiw.


p.s. (I wish i could ban the dweebs for good really lol )

[eskimo2]

I'm not really bothered by dive bombing Lancs, but... I certainly don't mind putting a realistic limitation on a bomber's ability to release bombs.  I think most big bombers would have a problem with bombs boinking off the front bulkhead of the bomb-bay if they tried to dive bomb vertically.  This would probably crunch the spinner/generator on the front of the bomb and turn it into a dud.  Perhaps some bombs would even explode on contact with the bulkhead, that would be cool.  I would think, however, that the rearmost, lowest bomb in the bay would clear the bulkhead even at a very steep dive angle.

On the other hand, didn't the Japanese use some twin engine bombers for Kamakazi missions?

eskimo

[Tilt]

Originally posted by hazed-

The answer? well it may not be the answer but how about if we use a method to stop the release of bombs from bombers which were certainly not designed for dive bombing?

be easier to link it to all internal ordance ........ie if the bomb bay door had to be open then the angle of attitude has to be plus/minus 20 degrees to drop......................

then it does not have to be built into every individual ac model it may even stop some of these silly goon/drunk drops in vertical climbs................

[sling322]

Originally posted by Tilt
it may even stop some of these silly goon/drunk drops in vertical climbs................

Now hold just a minute there.  The inverted and/or vertical loop goon drop is a thing of beauty.  I like hearing the way the goons voices change when you make them jump from the vertical or even upside down.  

[Innominate]

The only time a divebombing lanc is a threat, is to an undefended fleet.  Any half-retarded 5" gunner can kill a bomber formation before its anywhere near ready to drop.  

Anyways, it's a symptom of a problem, not a problem itself.  Divebombing is the most effective way to use any buff most of the time.

[XtrmeJ]

It may be the most "effective" way but far from realistic. I thought this game was supposed to be a "realistic sim"? well any half twit can comprehend that in WWII Lancasters did not dive bomb vertically because it was ridiculous. it shouldnt be a matter if a CV is defended or not, if u ever notice later at night there are less people online. this means less people to defend a CV when they are somwhere else. example - last night me and hazed were ans squaddies were fighting over A38 field to capture it. Our CV was outside of it.  there were 38 knights on at that time. As i approaced the base a Lancaster from 7-10k comes in and dive bombs our CV. This just ruins the whole potential of a situation if a Lancaster pilot could learn to calibrate and bomb. I think its ridiculous.

[Karnak]

I wouldn't have any problem at all with a limit on the angle that the B-17, B-26, Boston Mk III, Ki.67 and Lancaster Mk III can drop their bombs at, but I am absolutely against a blanket limitation.

The Ju88A-4, Mosquito FB.Mk VI and Il-2 Type 3 all could drop bombs from their bomb bays at steeper angles, though not verticle of course.

[Innominate]

Originally posted by XtrmeJ
It may be the most "effective" way but far from realistic.
...
As i approaced the base a Lancaster from 7-10k comes in and dive bombs our CV. This just ruins the whole potential of a situation if a Lancaster pilot could learn to calibrate and bomb. I think its ridiculous.

True, and it shouldn't be this way.

CV's as a whole in AH are extremly gamey.  A real CV is far more vulnerable than ours when attacked.  A divebomber, or torpedo bomber scoring a hit on a CV will at least cripple it.  In AH, it takes four torpedos, or 8000lbs of bombs.  The only planes able to deal out this kind of damage in a reasonable amount of time are the bombers.

"Learn to calibrate" is an disgusting copout.  Calibrating is easy, dropping bombs accuratly is easy.  Setting up for that drop takes a long time.  Even doing everything exactly according to the procedure, wait for speed to equalize, calibrate on a point, drop.  A TINY mistake on the calibration, or a minute speed or altitude change, and your calibration is worthless.  Whats worse is there is no way to tell when your speed has changed.  Jabos can attack almost any target in the game faster, more accuratly, and with more flexibility than level bombers.  However, The bombsight is only half of the problem, it being combined with nothing BUT pinpoint targets makes bombers all but unusable for most targets. The only targets bombers are well suited for are the ones which require insane amounts of ordnance to kill, HQs, CVs, and strat cities.  This before all of the assorted bugs infesting bombers at the moment.

When bombers are no longer allowed to divebomb, they're just do a shallow low level "attack-bombing" run on the CV(more effective, and survivable than divebombing anyways)

No matter what anyone does, EVERYTHING will be used the most effective way for it to be used.  If bombers are made so that they're useless for anything BUT level bombing, all you'll see is more suicide jabos.

Doing something to stop bombers from divebombing is fixing a symptom, not the root problem.  The problem being Gamey CV's and a bad bomber model.  

[ET]

I agree with  Innominate. The main problem before calibration with bombers was lone Lancs at 30K killing all the fighter hangers on small and medium bases. At least that was what most people complained about. They could harden these hangers as they did before (1 K to 2.5 K to kill with bomber) to 5 K or base the % of bomb hits on the target on plane altitude.The higher you go, the less hits. Then go back to pinpoint bombing.The calibration is not hard to do but it works differently for me on different maps. One map I can't miss, the next one the closest I come is two town lengths away. All with the same set up.

[hazed-]

I think you have missed my point here.

From what i read from Captain Brown (Raf test pilot for captured aircraft WW2) He basically says in it that the he177 could dive at medium angles originally in its design but because of outdated notions the German high command demanded it be able to do almost vertical dives.This caused the need for lots of strenghening and structural support , and its performance degrading weight, was needed to make this possible.He says how rediculous it was to try to make an aircraft of that size to perform these steep dives and he mentions the considerable nerve it takes to trust the aircraft will hold together in the considerable g forces produced.

This to me points to it being highly unusual, if not completely untried to dive bomb with anything of 4 engined bomber size.The fact that the diving 4 engined He-177 was such a novelty and so unusual to this test pilot in that it was designed to divebomb says it all doesnt it?

It wasnt done in WW2 as a typical attack for these sized aircraft and there were no pilots taking it upon themselves to fly them like it.This is my reason for disliking the fact that its common practice in AH.

With the fact that the bombbays were NOT designed for anything but level dropping couldnt we assume that trying to drop them in a vertical position was impossible or at least suicidal.If you read 'Combat Crew' by john Comer you will read about how bombs got dangerously 'hooked up' even in the simple horizonal drop position.How he has to use whatever he can to free the hung up bombs and how he can easily lose consciousness if his oxygen supply is interupted whilst he stands above the bombay doors.These people woudnt have dived vertical with 6000lbs of high explosives and just hope they fell out ok!

So what im asking is to give them limits in AH.

If the bomber is designed to dive or has ordinance on the outside wings then keep it as it is but bombers not designed to dive bomb could be restricted from doing it fairly i think.

If these dweebs want to dive bomb the carrier Lets make them use aircraft designed to do that job!

SBM
JU88s
VAL
STUKA
A20g*
B26*
TBM*
KI-67*
*(not sure how 'divebomb' capable these aircraft were but im sure its possible to find out)
Look at what they have to use! Aircraft all difficult to approach a carrier in!!.They have to earn their kill of the CV by cooperation or good flying.

The B17s and Lancasters, the only planes capable of killing a CV with a single pilot using vertical dive suicide would be now useless for that job.They would still be the best to level bomb it with and we would still see them used.
You could still try a shallow dive attack but this takes longer and allows the other side to attack you more and defend their ship.


manning a gun does help of course but sometimes it happens just as you are launching or busy attacking the base etc.
Theres often no time to land and grab the gun.

I dont think this is such an unfair, or even unrealistic restriction to impose on the large/heavy bombers.It would certainly stop those lancaster suiciders who so often ruin an entire area of battle in one swoop.

[Hungry]

quoted from Vaq
Aces High is not about honor. Aces High is about “I’m better than you because I shot you down,” no matter how you accomplished the feat. Aces High is about "I'm still better than you even though you shot me down," no matter how well your opponent flew the sortie.

Someone has to make a decision, I think the above quote answers so many of the issues raised in this BBS.  HO's dive bomb tactics and more.  Cheezy tactics usually defended by the faithfull because it happened in real life you know.

Mims
4thFG

[hazed-]

Originally posted by Mims
quoted from Vaq
Aces High is not about honor. Aces High is about “I’m better than you because I shot you down,” no matter how you accomplished the feat. Aces High is about "I'm still better than you even though you shot me down," no matter how well your opponent flew the sortie.

Someone has to make a decision, I think the above quote answers so many of the issues raised in this BBS.  HO's dive bomb tactics and more.  Cheezy tactics usually defended by the faithfull because it happened in real life you know.

Mims
4thFG

ok why dont you find me a instance where a lancaster or b17 divebombed a carrier or even a ship with a greater angle than say 30 degrees and ill stop asking for it.

The fact that idiots will be idiots and ruin the game by 'gaming the game' is not a valid defence of this behaviour.
HTC is a company that relies on customers who PAY money for an enjoyable enviroment .If you let idiots ruin that enviroment then you will LOSE those customers.If HTC use methods to control it then those customers wont leave or get put off will they?
True not everyone is bothered by this sort of thing but the point of this post is to find out how many DONT like it.Also their thoughts on whether they think they will lose interest in AH if this sort of thing continues.If no ones bothered by it then fine forget it was said.The point is to help show HTC how much you can and cant put up with.
for me this sort of thing is ruining AH. how about you?

what is it you hope to see in AH? for me its a near/semi WW2 type enviroment.The closer the better but I can accept the differing planes etc.even though when it is made just like WW2 like a scenario my enjoyment is tenfold!

I enjoy attacking like they used to. level bombing large targets, jaboing small pricise targets or torpedoing fleets.I dont like seeing people launch 25xp47s and all dive into a base and kill everything including themselves! or suicide divebombing fleets being used for good battles.When a players intention isnt to try to survive and have good fights but just to ruin someone elses fun, you know, it works! It DOES ruin the fun.why should we have to put up with it? we may as well go play quake or half life for that crap.

I am perfectly happy to see a guy close a base by clever and skillfull bombing.I can appreciate the effort used.I can accept losing a life or two to this sort of thing.


this limit on bomb angle drops from a heavy buff wont stop the jabo suicides but it would take away one of their favourite weapons (ie 14 000 lbs of eggs or 3x that) It forces them to aquire some bloody skill to kill cvs or at least have to make SEVERAL attacks instead of one.Or better still they would have to do it in ju88s which are at least easier to shoot down than lancs and b17s!

AH well there it is, I request that HTC look into this idea a bit.If you agree it could be usefull please use it.I would very much appreciate it.

[Wotan]

There are only 2 multi eng bombers in AH that are capable of dive attacks. The ju88 and the 234. Neither of these are modeled with thier "glide/dive" bomb sites. In the case of the 234 its completely wrong in how its level bomb site works as well.

Heres 2 large images of the 234 cockpit. This shows you the eye piece of the periscope site which was used as a shallow dive bomb site. The pilot would drop from 5000 to 1500 meters (16,404 ft to 4921ft).

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ar-234%20Bomber/ar234b-front-hq.jpg

This shows the level bomb site (Lotfe 7K). The pilot would put the 234 on auto pilot and rotatate the control yoke out of the way. Read below for the procedure

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ar-234%20Bomber/ar234b-hq.jpg

When operated as a bomber, the Ar-234 could be used in shallow dive attacks, low-level horizontal attacks, or high-altitude horizontal attacks. In shallow dive attacks, the pilot would drop from about 5,000 meters to under 1,500 meters, aiming the bombs through the periscopic sight that stuck up above the cockpit.

In low-level horizontal attack, used only when the target was obscured, the pilot simply flew level and dropped the bombs when it seemed appropriate. Results were not generally very impressive.

High-altitude horizontal attacks were particularly interesting. Since the Ar-234 was a single-seat aircraft, the pilot had to double as the bombardier, and did so with the help of a sophisticated Patin autopilot system. The pilot would fly to within about 30 kilometers of the target, engage the autopilot, swivel the control column out of his way to the right, and then lean over and sight the target through the Lotfe 7K bombsight.

The bombsight was linked to the autopilot. As long as the pilot held the target in the crosshairs, the autopilot would change the aircraft's heading accordingly, and then the bombsight would automatically drop the bombs at the right moment.

The way the arado bombing is modelled in ah its completely worthless. I can bomb with the level site pretty easily but in order to get good hits on a twn it either takes multiple passes salvoing 1 bomb (3 with drones) at a time or reducing speed to get a tighter group.

The ju88 only dive bombed with external bombs. There were specialized ju88s groups that were anti-shipping. They used torp , divebombing and level bombing against ships.

The ju88 is missing its dive bomb site as well

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_mech_computer_1943-44.tif

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_divebombing_computer_principle.tif

Heres 2 images that show how the procedure.

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_flowchart_divebombing.tif

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_operations_divebombing.tif

Even the he-177 (which was capable of shallow dive attacks) did so with external bombs.

The B26 was capable of carrying torpedos. The a20g was an attack aircraft and it would make sense that it would be capable of atleast shallow angle dive attacks.

As to why folks fly the way they do, who cares its there sub. I dont care for cvs much so I guess its easy for me to say f'it. But folks are not attracked to dweeb behavior because its "allowed" they do so because they are dweebs. The game is only as good as the players make it. I wouldnt spend much time dwelling on how other folks fly you will just make yourself miserable.

The thing about dive heavy bombers is they know most of the time its suicidal. I would be for all for ht disabling bomb drops above a certain angle just like he disables bomber guns on otr or car bombing.

[214thCavalier]

Agree

[ccvi]

Originally posted by Wotan
The ju88 only dive bombed with external bombs.

http://www.il2center.com/Reference/Bulk/LW%20Ju-88%20Bomber/Ju88_flowchart_divebombing.tif

In that picture it reads:
left side: "Vorbereitung fuer den Abwurf, E: Bei Rumpfbombenabwurf: Bodenklappen aufkurbeln"
lower right: "Reiseflug: Bodenklappen zukurbeln"

Preparation for drop, E: When dropping bombs from fuselage, crank doors open.
Crusing flight: Crank to close bomb door.