Big Brother on steroids

[miko2d]

Kieran: Comparing what we live under to a Nazi or Stalinistic state is a bit over the top.

 If we already lived under totalitarian government, what would be a point of discussing it? We are not there yet but we are moving towards totalitarian government.
 Do you usually hit the brakes before or after you hit an obstacle?


Guess what? Those acts were repealed when the need was gone, so the suggestion that such acts cannot be repealed is already proven wrong by history.

 Which of the totalitarian institutions created during the conquest and subjugation of the Confederate States of America got repealed?


Will such acts get repealed when the need is gone is the question, and that is handled by us the citizenry through our votes.

 Government policies shape citizenry as much as citizennry shapes government. Once people are corrupted into relying on handouts and coercion rather than their own abilities, they would not stop propagating the system until it crashes.

 miko

[weazel]

It's a bit of a stretch to compare 1940s surveillance capabilities with todays.

[Kieran]

Dowding-

Well... I lived here during the 9/11 attacks, and I think I can pretty much say if some country had stood up and said "It was us!" you would be looking at a situation very much like Japan/US during WWII- except we'd have been bombing the holy crap outta them with smart bombs. The only thing that makes this different is there was no clear, unmistakeable enemy claiming credit, nestled in a clearly defined area.

Miko-

To which "totalitarian" institutions do you refer? Reconstruction? That ended in the 1880's. The spate of Jim Crowe laws bears mute testimony to that fact.

As far as what our government does to us... we allow it to happen. We vote for them, or we vote them out.

[Dowding (Work)]

The only thing that makes this different is there was no clear, unmistakeable enemy claiming credit, nestled in a clearly defined area.

You make out that this is a minor point. It is the point. There was no single nation involved for a start. It would be like declaring war on an ideology.

It's inane. And it's a sound bite. You even had the King of Spin, Blair jumping on the band wagon - that speaks volumes.

[AKS\/\/ulfe]

Originally posted by Kieran
We are at war. In WWII there used to be food rationing and blackouts, curfews, and myriad other curtailments of rights. Guess what? Those acts were repealed when the need was gone, so the suggestion that such acts cannot be repealed is already proven wrong by history. Will such acts get repealed when the need is gone is the question, and that is handled by us the citizenry through our votes.

Kieran, you're right... except there's a small detail that many people forget. This isn't any sort of conventional war we're at here, as a matter of fact I'd be very freakin' surprised if they actually get any more leads, information or prevent any attacks simply by taking away the citizens rights.

I highly doubt these curtailing of rights will provide them anything other than the ability to keep chiseling away at what we have until we have nothing at all.

Remember this may be a war, but it has no end in sight... not anytime soon anyway. So while we should get our rights back in the end... will we have any left in the end(if there even is one) to demand them back?
-SW

[popeye]

Dick Nixon and J. Edgar Hoover would be green with envy.

edit:  oops.

[Kieran]

Hey, I am not saying people shouldn't be aware of their rights. I am saying it's pretty silly to compare us to Stalinist/Nazi regimes. I am also saying we have the power to change these decisions by voting.

It may be more fun to yell "the sky is falling", I don't know...

[Shamus]

The INS has just started to enforce a little known law in Michigan that allows them to set up checkpoints anywhere within 25 miles of the border where everyone is questioned as to who they are, where they are going, etc.

I have heard that many these agents are somewhat rude and intimidating and have informed some people that they may be subject to detainment of undetirmined length if they do not answer questions to the agents satisfaction,  how many of you carry a birth cirtificate or passport at all times to prove citizenship? I for one dont like the idea of being stopped with no probable cause and forced to produce my "papers".

Oh and by the way, the DEA and local law enforcement is also present to enforce drug and state violations that become evident during the interview and search.

I have worked as an investigator for many years both in cooperation with with law enforcment and in the defense capacity and can tell you that all of this information being compiled will be abused. On more than one occasion I have had prosecutors state to me that they felt the 4th ammendment was an impediment to good law enforcment, the first time I heard that I figured the guy had to be joking and I laughed..he was not smiling.

I guess the part that really bothers me is that the U.S. used to be envied or resented by many others in the world, including the Musslem radicals, because of the rights and freedoms enjoyed by its common citizens, and in a short period of time that has been changed...Osama has got to be laughing his bellybutton off about how easy it was.

shamus

[whgates3]

comparing TIA to nazi germany in the early thirties or USSR in the same period is not and invalid comparison at all, not even a bad one - there was a good amount of freedom in both societies - it was the slow, constant institution of similar programs and policies that lead to them being what they were at their peak of totalitarianism....that was j edgar hoover you're thinking of - herbert hoover was the corrupt president who, through lack of oversight of the securities markets, gave us the great depression

[Hortlund]

Paranoid idiots with guns...great.

[Hortlund]

You know, what puzzles me most is that you guys have hundreds of thousands of Moslems all over the world that would willingly trade their own lifes for a chance to kill a couple of your citizens.

That doesnt bother you though. But when your own law enforcement agencies are trying to protect your dumb tulips you want to tie both their hands behind their backs. Throwing hysteric fits and comparing your own police to nazis and communists...great sence of proportion btw... 8-40 000 000 innocent civilians murdered compared to tracking emails or purchase of explosives...

Sounds like a prime candidate for the Darwin awards.

[weazel]

So you would have no problem with the police doing a "sneak and peek" search of your home or business while your away?

I fail to see how this database will protect me from any handsomehunk willing to blow himself up with a dynamite belt or crashing a plane into a building.

The enemy isn't the average American....even though the current thugs in power seem to think so.

IMO this kind of crap goes against the core values this country was founded on, and is one step closer to totalitarian rule.

*Main Entry: 1to·tal·i·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: (")tO-"ta-l&-'ter-E-&n
Function: adjective
Etymology: Italian totalitario, from totalità totality
Date: 1926
1 a : of or relating to centralized control by an autocratic leader or hierarchy : AUTHORITARIAN, DICTATORIAL; especially : DESPOTIC b : of or relating to a political regime based on subordination of the individual to the state and strict control of all aspects of the life and productive capacity of the nation especially by coercive measures (as censorship and terrorism)
2 a : advocating or characteristic of totalitarianism b : completely regulated by the state especially as an aid to national mobilization in an emergency c : exercising autocratic powers : tending toward monopoly*

I guess the part that really bothers me is that the U.S. used to be envied or resented by many others in the world, including the Musslem radicals, because of the rights and freedoms enjoyed by its common citizens, and in a short period of time that has been changed...Osama has got to be laughing his bellybutton off about how easy it was.

shamus

Spot on shamus.

Originally posted by Hortlund
You know, what puzzles me most is that you guys have hundreds of thousands of Moslems all over the world that would willingly trade their own lifes for a chance to kill a couple of your citizens.

That doesnt bother you though. But when your own law enforcement agencies are trying to protect your dumb tulips you want to tie both their hands behind their backs. Throwing hysteric fits and comparing your own police to nazis and communists...great sence of proportion btw... 8-40 000 000 innocent civilians murdered compared to tracking emails or purchase of explosives...

Sounds like a prime candidate for the Darwin awards.

[Sandman]

The terrorists win.

[Rude]

Originally posted by Dowding (Work)
You make out that this is a minor point. It is the point. There was no single nation involved for a start. It would be like declaring war on an ideology.

It's inane. And it's a sound bite. You even had the King of Spin, Blair jumping on the band wagon - that speaks volumes.

You can call it what you like while we try to protect ourselves and dispose of a serious problem.

[streakeagle]

If you have to give up the very freedom you are trying to protect, what is the point of fighting? If you argue it is only for the duration of the "war", when will any "war" on terrorism end? 911 gave the government the excuse it needed to seize more power the same way the Great Depression did. I seriously doubt any of the laws passed to fight terrorism will ever be repealed.

The day will come when the American people will vote themselves out of power. The politicians have already convinced them it is in their own best interest to give up as much money and liberty as necessary to government to live safely and securely. It is almost funny considering that we made so many sacrifices to overcome Communism only to start becoming Communists ourselves. Is there really so much difference between a two-party system and a one-party system? Of course this country really only has one party... the dollar