Author Topic: Another anti-suicide method  (Read 400 times)

Offline Widewing

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Another anti-suicide method
« on: December 03, 2002, 01:42:42 PM »
Well, we have two methods of reducing suicide bomb runs currently being discussed. These consist of idea being floated by HTC, which uses a minimal survival time after bomb release, and the concept of perking heavy bombs.

Both have merit. However, I feel neither can best solve the problem without unwanted “side effects”, if you will.

Here’s my solution. It is more complex, requiring greater changes to the code. Nonetheless, it will end suicide runs and add a measure of realism not yet modeled.

First, in general terms, I will describe four major types of aerial bombs delivered by WWII aircraft.

A) High explosive: These bombs had a relatively thin casing and greater weight of explosive. The primary cause of damage was blast effect, with shrapnel being a secondary effect. These proved to be only nominally effective against ships and usually damage was confined to superficial against even moderately armored ships. However, near misses could also do substantial damage to unarmored merchant ships due to the hydraulic shock applied to the vessel’s hull. Military ships were generally designed to withstand the shock of near misses, although the mechanical shock often damaged shipboard electronics.
B) Semi-armor Piercing: Thicker casing than HE, delayed fusing and about 25% less explosive. The U.S. Navy used these bombs extensively in WWII. Their effect on armored ships was marginal, depending upon the thickness of armor encountered. However, they were highly effective against unarmored or lightly armored ships. Typically, these could penetrate through several decks before exploding.
C) Armor Piercing: Primarily designed and used against “hard” targets, such as concrete, steel reinforced concrete and rolled, steel armor plate. Very thick casing, delayed fusing and only about 50% of the explosive found in an equal weight HE bomb.
D) Fragmentation: Principally rely on shrapnel for damage. American field engineers later attached small parachutes to light weight versions and thus was invented the much feared “parafrag” bomb. Parachutes allowed aircraft to drop the bombs at tree top level, and still have time to clear the “destruction zone”.  These bombs did tremendous damage to common structures and personnel. These would be a welcome addition to our currently available weapons. Parafrag bombs used both contact and ground proximity fusing, although I believe the latter was only available towards the end of the war, and only in limited numbers.

My recommended solutions:

1) Fusing altitude: Establish a minimum fusing altitude for bombs exceeding 250 pounds. Bombs released below 2,000 feet will not explode.  This does not affect rockets as they use a contact fuse and are armed by launch G.
2) Effectiveness of bombs should be determined by the type of target. AP bombs have maximum effect against hard targets, HE against soft targets. For example, 8k of AP bombs will sink a CV, 16k of SAP, or 32k of HE would be required.
3) Perk HE, SAP and AP bombs of 500lbs and over.
4) HTC could substitute a 10 second “survival period” to gain destruction perks and/or prevent loss of bomb perks for number 1 above.

All of these will add up to the elimination of suicide attacks, and provide greater realism, and planning by individual pilots.

As a side note, as long as bombs are released above 2,000 feet or the pilot survives for 10 seconds beyond release, there would be no perk loss for having to dump ordnance when coming under attack by enemy aircraft.

Now convincing HTC that all of this is worth the extra work is another matter. ;)

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 11:57:56 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Grizzly

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2002, 01:59:45 PM »
I also have an idea, one that may be a bit simpler. An aggravating thing about suicide jabos is that they keep coming back until the target is toast. Certainly suicide attacks were done, but death had a limiting affect upon the amount of damage they could inflict. How about a five minute respawn delay on a player who drops a bomb followed immediately with a crash?

Offline popeye

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2002, 02:03:05 PM »
"How about a five minute respawn delay on a player who drops a bomb followed immediately with a crash?"

How about just restrict that player's access to bombs for an hour?  Maybe allow him rockets and/or 100 lb bombs to hunt GVs.
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Offline Karnak

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 03:52:15 PM »
Widewing,

You post seems only oriented towards ships.  Most bombs in AH are not dropped on ships.

A second point is that there are many, many examples of bombs being dropped from below 2,000ft (I assume you meant to say that bombs wouldn't arm if dropped from below 2,000ft).  Mosquito FB.Mk VIs commonly dropped 500lb bombs from less than 200ft up, often with devastating effect and accuracy.

I wouldn't recommend perking bombs in the 500lb / 250kg class or below as those weapons were commonly carried by fighters in WWII.

I would not support perking any bombs carried by aircraft classified as "Bombers" in AH.
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Offline Widewing

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2002, 04:33:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Widewing,

You post seems only oriented towards ships.  Most bombs in AH are not dropped on ships.


This is true, but the largest percentage of suicide runs are made against ships. Moreover, HE bombs work just fine against structures. They should not be very effective against ships and shore battery installations. As it stands now, we have carriers and cruisers being sunk by heavy bombers, whereas in point of fact, not a single hit was ever scored on a maneuvering carrier by a heavy bomber during the whole of WWII.

I've seen guys brag that they would continue the suicide runs until the CV was sunk. That sort of nonsense needs to come to a grinding halt.


My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Gryffin

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Re: Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2002, 04:42:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Bombs released above 2,000 feet will not explode.


I agree 99%. If you change the above line to say "bombs released below 2,000 feet will not explode" then I would agree 100%.

Offline gatso

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2002, 04:47:40 PM »
I'm strongly in favour of HTC modelling all the various different variations of bombs. I can see no reason why anyone could complain that a AP bomb doing more damage to a hardened structure than a HE bomb.

However, Going to the extreme is not what I want to see, I agree with point #2 totally in your original post. #3 I think is open to debate and I'm afraid I don't think #4 offers enough benefits for the work that would have to be put into creating it and I strongly dissagree with point #1. A search for Operation 'Jericho' will give you an answer why.

Would love to see some new bomb groups. Cluster, delayed fuse, incendrie (for use on cities). A 'Big Bomb' Grandslam or maybe the smaller TallBoy would be great.

Gatso
« Last Edit: December 03, 2002, 04:49:51 PM by gatso »

Offline Karnak

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Re: Re: Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2002, 05:32:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gryffin
I agree 99%. If you change the above line to say "bombs released below 2,000 feet will not explode" then I would agree 100%.


And gloss over the fact that WWII bombs were frequently dropped from much, much lower altitudes?

Why the drive to abandon realism?
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Offline Gryffin

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Re: Re: Re: Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2002, 09:50:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak


But remember this idea is only for the bigger bombs ...

Offline Bodhi

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2002, 10:31:39 PM »
How about we just increase the amount of ack over a fleet to realistic levels????  I think that in itself will negate a lot of this suicide baloney to begin with involving the fleet.  The problem with the current set up is, if you use multiple suicide buffs, the fellt can only target one, make multi target tasking a part of it as well.  When is the last time anyone has looked at a CV group being attacked in WW2, the air is FULL of flak bursts.... which leads me to believe if that is brought back, the problem will in some ways be fixed.  The counter to it will be mass suicide attacks, which realistically did succeed in WW2.  During the invasion of Okinawa, over 200 ships were hit by Kamikazis... that alone says that while we may not like it, suicide attacks were used...  

Up the ack, make them pay for it...
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Offline CurtissP-6EHawk

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2002, 11:16:03 PM »
SIMPLE:

If you die, you dont get credit for ANYTHING....bomber or fighter, ground targets or A2A kills.....period
« Last Edit: December 04, 2002, 12:08:25 AM by CurtissP-6EHawk »

Offline cobia38

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Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2002, 11:43:22 PM »
in ww2 if you droped a bomb and did not live fore 10 seconds your bomb still went off  lol
 
and if you survive ack for 10 sec you are damm lucky.

but i do agree that 1000 lbs,rs should be perked for jabo,s.


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Offline Widewing

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Re: Re: Another anti-suicide method
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2002, 11:59:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gryffin
I agree 99%. If you change the above line to say "bombs released below 2,000 feet will not explode" then I would agree 100%.


Sorry, typo. Fixed it. Now says UNDER 2,000 ft. :D

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.