Author Topic: Hitech, Please define the problem.  (Read 1244 times)

Offline eskimo2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7207
      • hallbuzz.com
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« on: December 03, 2002, 06:53:42 PM »
Hitech,

I don’t think that you, or anyone for that matter, have shown EXACTLY what the problem is with “suicide bombing”.  This thread is NOT intended to suggest that there is not a problem.  But I do not think that you have made it clear what kind of actions you do not want to see in AH, and what kind of actions you would rather see.  Right now folks are assuming that their vision of the problem matches yours, I’m not sure that this is the case.

So if you want players to make helpful, outside-the-box suggestions, please explain more clearly how the status quo does not match your vision of how AH should be:

Who is causing the problem here?
Jabos, multi-engined bombers, or both?  
Some BB posters have assumed that you are talking about jabos, and others have assumed you are talking about bombers.  Which (or both) do you see as the problem?

What targets are you concerned about?  
CVs?  Bases?  Other targets? Discussions so far have focused on either.

What activities would you rather see instead of suicide bombing?  

Why is suicide bombing a problem?  
Are you concerned with it being an unrealistic activity?  
Is it hurting the players’ overall attitudes in the MA?  
Are you bothered by a lack of skill being displayed?
Is it distasteful (Kamikaze)?
Is it too gamey?
Does it somehow lead to players quitting AH?

Was it less of a problem in the past? [B/]  
When did suicide bombing become a problem?  Or has it just gotten worse?

Once again, I am not challenging Hitech’s assertion that there is a problem, only that it hasn’t been made clear whether we are talking about apples or oranges (or bananas or kiwis for that matter). [B/]

eskimo

Offline brady

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7055
      • http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/JG2main.html
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2002, 11:44:47 PM »
May be the fact that CV's are so easly killed by people doing this that some players actualy keep captured CV's out of play to avoid lossing them as soon as their discovered by the enemy.

  Curently playes kill themselfs in droves( at least what seams like a large precentage), to foster CV sinkage, base capture, and whatever. The funny thing is it has always been this way, it aint my cup of tea but then again if their having fun why not unless of course in so doing their runing it for a lot of us in the process.

Offline Innominate

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2002, 11:54:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by brady
May be the fact that CV's are so easly killed by people doing this that some players actualy keep captured CV's out of play to avoid lossing them as soon as their discovered by the enemy.

  Curently playes kill themselfs in droves( at least what seams like a large precentage), to foster CV sinkage, base capture, and whatever. The funny thing is it has always been this way, it aint my cup of tea but then again if their having fun why not unless of course in so doing their runing it for a lot of us in the process.


CV's are hardly easy to sink, as long as they're being attended to.  A lone CV forgotten about is an easy kill.  A CV with both 5" guns manned is a fortress.  Bomber formations trying to suicide into a manned 5" gun are nothing more than three easy kills.  (Though it would be nice if newbies who cant even hit with a 5" would stick to the quad-40s)

People don't suicide buffs into CV's because they're easy to kill.  They do it becuase a CV is -hard- to kill.  Suiciding a buff happens to make it easier.

CV AI ack should be beefed way up, and the damage required to sink it reduced.  Kill most planes before they can get close enough to drop a bomb, don't count on making it take more ordnance to deal with something being too easy to kill.

The hardened nature of many of our targets promote suicide bombing.  The best way to sink a CV is to suicide into it, and try again, because it takes so much damn ordnance to kill it.  If it only took one or two solid(But significantly harder) drops to sink, it would be worth trying to survive.

Offline Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4294
      • Wait For It
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2002, 11:57:01 PM »
Dweebs.  Dweebs who suicide bomb... over, and over, and over.  Be it on CV's or Bases.  Heck I've even seen calls for "suicide jabo mission up!!"

...friggin retards.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline cobia38

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1258
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2002, 12:01:34 AM »
corect me if im wrong but didnt japan use these tactics to sink u.s. ships.if AH is a ww 2 sim then cuicide cv runs should be eceptable. why the fuss.       :rolleyes:


  Harvesting taters,one  K4 at a time

Offline BNM

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 559
      • http://www.christian3x3.com/
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2002, 12:17:40 AM »
Ok cobia28 if you want reality then when you do the suicide run you are dead. Don't come back...

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2002, 12:42:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Innominate
CV's are hardly easy to sink, as long as they're being attended to.  A lone CV forgotten about is an easy kill.  A CV with both 5" guns manned is a fortress.  Bomber formations trying to suicide into a manned 5" gun are nothing more than three easy kills.  (Though it would be nice if newbies who cant even hit with a 5" would stick to the quad-40s)

People don't suicide buffs into CV's because they're easy to kill.  They do it becuase a CV is -hard- to kill.  Suiciding a buff happens to make it easier.

CV AI ack should be beefed way up, and the damage required to sink it reduced.  Kill most planes before they can get close enough to drop a bomb, don't count on making it take more ordnance to deal with something being too easy to kill.

The hardened nature of many of our targets promote suicide bombing.  The best way to sink a CV is to suicide into it, and try again, because it takes so much damn ordnance to kill it.  If it only took one or two solid(But significantly harder) drops to sink, it would be worth trying to survive.


I'm sorry, but there isn't a hint of logic in this argument. If CVs become much easier to kill, then the suicide dweebs know they can sink it in one or two sorties, rather than 8 or 10. So, how is that going to discourage them at all? After all, they only die once or twice instead of 8 or 10 times.

As to the CV being a fortress - hardly. We only have two manned 5" turrets. Actual carriers had four 5" dual turrets, with four more individual 5" guns. Add to that 72 40mm and 52 20mm guns for close range. Baltimore class cruisers (which is what we have) had six 5" turrets, They also had 22 40mm, with 28 20mm Orlikon mounts as well. Indeed, the volume of triple A put up by our TGs is a small fraction of what was actually available. Even the destroyers are well under-modeled. We are also limited to 6k of visual range. By 1943, radar ranging triple A was deadly out to 15,000 yards and sight optics made visual shooting practical out that far, albeit with less accuracy.

I suggest that we have limits as follows:

32k of HE to sink CV
16k of SAP to sink CV
8k of AP to sink CV

So, a combination including 4k of AP, 4k of SAP and 8k of HE would do it.

Or, add the correct number of defensive guns. If you think CVs are a fortress now, multiply the number of manned guns by a factor of 4, and we will have something close to realism, and the suicide dweebs will quit in frustration.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Innominate

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2702
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2002, 12:58:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
I'm sorry, but there isn't a hint of logic in this argument. If CVs become much easier to kill, then the suicide dweebs know they can sink it in one or two sorties, rather than 8 or 10. So, how is that going to discourage them at all? After all, they only die once or twice instead of 8 or 10 times.

I suggest that we have limits as follows:

32k of HE to sink CV
16k of SAP to sink CV
8k of AP to sink CV

So, a combination including 4k of AP, 4k of SAP and 8k of HE would do it.

Or, add the correct number of defensive guns. If you think CVs are a fortress now, multiply the number of manned guns by a factor of 4, and we will have something close to realism, and the suicide dweebs will quit in frustration.



The point of suiciding into the CV is so that you can take off and do it again ASAP.  There is no need to suicide when a single strike getting through the ack can do it.  And it's not exactly a suicide attack if you never get as far as the actuall attack.

The CV's SHOULD have the correct number of defensive guns.  The challenge of killing a CV should be getting the bombs ONTO the ship, not simply trucking eight 1000lbs out to the CV.  The ships should take a realistic amount of ordnance. Perhaps a bit higher, maybe 3000-4000lbs, half of that if you use AP bombs or torpedos.   AP bombs could be restricted to planes like the SBD, Val, TBM.  The AP bombs would give the maritime attack planes a reason to be used against ships.

Basicly, CV's take a lot of damage to help make up for thier overly weak ack(and to a lesser extent the lack of CAP)  It should be fixed, they shouldn't take all that much damage, but should have a lethal ack cloud.

Offline Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4294
      • Wait For It
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2002, 01:16:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by cobia38
corect me if im wrong but didnt japan use these tactics to sink u.s. ships.if AH is a ww 2 sim then cuicide cv runs should be eceptable. why the fuss.       :rolleyes:


Right...  You bet, the Japanese started the suicide bombing thing in during Pearl Harbor.  Yep... they all just slammed those planes right into all those ships.  Only a few made it back to thier CV's and were immediately castrated for cowardice of course.  Then they carried on doing it in every single CV battle that took place.  And wouldn't you know it?... every single Allied ship that was targeted was destroyed too.  Oh ya... just read about it.  They were known to suicide bomb in all the battles... every one from beginning to end.  :rolleyes:
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Conagher

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23
      • http://www.elcartel.netfirms.com
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2002, 01:57:32 AM »
Tumor, you know not of what you speak, and the Japanese were not the only one's that mounted suicide attacks. Granted the Japanese did train pilots for just that purpose while no other nationality did, the US Navy mounted a massive inadvertant suicide attack during the battle of Midway. Torpedo squadron 8 had only one survivor......Ens George Gay of Texas, unless you count in the other half of that squadron that trainied together in Fla and went to the Midway Island defence force, in which only two of that half survived thier attack during Midway. Bombing Squadron 8 (both from the USS Yorktown) was competely wiped out, with nothing to show for it, not one hit. The attacked without fighter cover and the ones that did survive the Japanese CAP were shot down by ack gunners aboard the carriers and support vessels.

   I have tried many times in the game to get hits on a CV, mostly with a SBD because its fun. If I am lucky I don't get clobbered by ack before I drop my bombs, but that is usually because I am the only one up there, or at best there is a couple of squaddies with me. Guess what, if we get shot down, we grab fresh planes and try again. If this is suicide bombing then so be it. I cannot see where trying to survive by not hitting a CV is better than letting the planes roll off the flight deck and keep pounding the base you are trying to defend. In a perfect world, the Knights, Rooks and Bish would be able to send in a force of about 12-15 SBD's for a dive bomb attack and the same number of TBM's for a torpedo attack, as well as 20 or so fighters to escort them. As any of us who have played the game any amount of time knows this rarely happens. What do you expect is going to happen, usually 3 or 4 guys will keep hitting a CV till it is dead, and the threat is taken away. Consider this, might not the 3 or 4 suicide monekys that instantly spawn back in to hit the CV be the same as several planes in a squadron comming in using a piecemeal attack? Granted not a very sound tactic, but it beats getting vulched and having all of your base resources porked so you cannot fight back. Is it annoying to have some guys dive bomb with a Lancaster formation and kill the CV in one fell swoop....you betcha, but on the other hand it is annoyuing to have your fuel porked in a 3 base radious, and getting vulched everytime you try and take off from the field you are trying to defend.
    The point is, there will always be people that will exploit the game, be it Aces High, Counter Strike, Diablo II or whatever. There is really no amount of software or game features to stop it. The people that want to play that way will find a way to exploit the game......they always do. Before I got into online gaming, I played tabletop miniture games, and it was the same old song and dance. In fact I had a special shirt I wore to con's that said "If I let you win can I go home early."
  I am sure that you can fly a plane better than I can, and no doubt you have played AH longer than I have, so dont take this as a flame. I would rather see Hitech spend time on new updates than trying to stop a few "gamey" players from doing what they are going to do anyway. I see the logic on both sides of the argument, but I have also seen several other people out there concerned about the ligit players trying to sink a CV not getting anywhere for their efforts. If a CV has fully manned guns and cap, very few planes will get through, and the ones who do are likely to get hit while on a bombing run, either diving or level becase they are most vunerable then, as for if they take any action to avoid fire, they will miss their target. So for their bombs to do no damage after all that, would be a bad idea, at least I think so anyway.

  One possible sloution for the dive bombing LANCS and 17's would be to not allow bombs to drop out of the bomb bay after the nose has dropped past a certain angle, I know nothing of programming, so I have no clue as to how hard that would be to impliment, but it is an idea, might be a bad one I don't know. :confused:


Conn
« Last Edit: December 04, 2002, 02:01:26 AM by Conagher »
Sigh..........I really wish HTC would put a beer holder in the cockpit.

Offline Staga

  • Parolee
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5334
      • http://www.nohomersclub.com/
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2002, 02:03:16 AM »
Looks like Eskimo has been participating in "Analytic Problem Solving" course.

I still prefer BFVL method: brute force,violence and luck :)

Offline Tumor

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4294
      • Wait For It
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2002, 08:46:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Conagher [/b]


Tumor, you know not of what you speak, and the Japanese were not the only one's that mounted suicide attacks. Granted the Japanese did train pilots for just that purpose while no other nationality did, the US Navy mounted a massive inadvertant suicide attack during the battle of Midway.

Exactly.... we aren't talking about end result here, we are talking "intent" at launch time.

Torpedo squadron 8 had only one survivor......Ens George Gay of Texas, unless you count in the other half of that squadron that trainied together in Fla and went to the Midway Island defence force, in which only two of that half survived thier attack during Midway. Bombing Squadron 8 (both from the USS Yorktown) was competely wiped out, with nothing to show for it, not one hit. The attacked without fighter cover and the ones that did survive the Japanese CAP were shot down by ack gunners aboard the carriers and support vessels.

...and?  Did they intend to die when they took off?

   I have tried many times in the game to get hits on a CV, mostly with a SBD because its fun. If I am lucky I don't get clobbered by ack before I drop my bombs

So learn how to survive... Point 1) Drop from HIGHER alt.  Practice.. LEARN how to do it.

but that is usually because I am the only one up there, or at best there is a couple of squaddies with me. Guess what, if we get shot down, we grab fresh planes and try again. If this is suicide bombing then so be it.

It's not suicide bombing.  It's poor tactics.  It becomes suicide bombing when you know whats going to happen and are too lazy to learn a better way.  Just sayin.

 I cannot see where trying to survive by not hitting a CV is better than letting the planes roll off the flight deck and keep pounding the base you are trying to defend.

Easy to say that in defense of your point, however...  the point is to survive and HIT the CV.  It all comes down to not having a reason to stay alive.  The "screw it I can just re-up" attitude is what leads to the "abuse" that is suicide bombing.

 In a perfect world, the Knights, Rooks and Bish would be able to send in a force of about 12-15 SBD's for a dive bomb attack and the same number of TBM's for a torpedo attack, as well as 20 or so fighters to escort them. As any of us who have played the game any amount of time knows this rarely happens. What do you expect is going to happen, usually 3 or 4 guys will keep hitting a CV till it is dead, and the threat is taken away.

Of course this is not a perfect world.  Thats no excuse.  CV's can be sunk, with a little patience and thought.  It's just not that hard. (ref "screw it" attitude above).

Consider this, might not the 3 or 4 suicide monekys that instantly spawn back in to hit the CV be the same as several planes in a squadron comming in using a piecemeal attack?

At least the latter would be acceptable, don't you think?

Granted not a very sound tactic, but it beats getting vulched and having all of your base resources porked so you cannot fight back.

So you back up and use a safe launch point!  No.. I do not believe suicide bombing is an acceptable alternative.  Again.. back to the "screw it" attitude.  The options are "nearly" always available.  Laziness and impatience prevents using them.

 Is it annoying to have some guys dive bomb with a Lancaster formation and kill the CV in one fell swoop....you betcha, but on the other hand it is annoyuing to have your fuel porked in a 3 base radious, and getting vulched everytime you try and take off from the field you are trying to defend.

War is hell.

    The point is, there will always be people that will exploit the game, be it Aces High, Counter Strike, Diablo II or whatever. There is really no amount of software or game features to stop it. The people that want to play that way will find a way to exploit the game......they always do.

Yes.. and "usually" measures are taken to put these "types" in thier place... as it should be, and hopefully as it WILL be.

  I am sure that you can fly a plane better than I can

You know not of what you speak lol :D

 I would rather see Hitech spend time on new updates than trying to stop a few "gamey" players from doing what they are going to do anyway.

Me too sorta.. however I'm willing to gamble that HiTech has already done the ground work.  And... anything HTC does to improve the game and decrease the gamey is a good thing.  And btw... "Few" IMHO is not an accurate description of those who will "do it anyway".

I see the logic on both sides of the argument, but I have also seen several other people out there concerned about the ligit players trying to sink a CV not getting anywhere for their efforts.

The legit players who get nowhere for there efforts IMHO have yet to learn the simple task of achieving thier goal.  Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.  Never should you game the game to achieve the win.

If a CV has fully manned guns and cap, very few planes will get through, and the ones who do are likely to get hit while on a bombing run, either diving or level becase they are most vunerable then, as for if they take any action to avoid fire, they will miss their target. So for their bombs to do no damage after all that, would be a bad idea, at least I think so anyway.

As a gameplay "concession"... oh well (IMO).  I'd be losing some bombs too.. but not always, not even most of the time.

  One possible sloution for the dive bombing LANCS and 17's would be to not allow bombs to drop out of the bomb bay after the nose has dropped past a certain angle

So as a game the gamer... I simply learn to toss the bombs.  It's amazing some folks spend more time figureing out the "lamer way" when the "ethical way" (ya I know.. ethics in AH, what a joke, just lookin for a good term) would be that much easier.

I know nothing of programming, so I have no clue as to how hard that would be to impliment, but it is an idea, might be a bad one I don't know. :confused:

Any idea that would prevent the suicide bomber is ok for the MA.  IMO the only place this "tactic" should be encouraged or even accepted, would be a scenario or the mission theater, and only then when deemed necessary to continue the "plan" so to speak.  Suicide Jabo/Buff missions does nothing more than add to the "Quake with wings" look AH has been known to lean to.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Amboss

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 93
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2002, 08:57:57 AM »
The problem with the suicide Jabos is not their existance but the fact that they can just up and be back at suiciding within 10 seconds after each death.

-Amboss

Offline AtmkRstr

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 393
Hitech, Please define the problem.
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2002, 09:13:23 AM »
There was a Japanese suicide torpedo found outside Perl Harbour.  A Jap sub droped off several (3 I think) of these manned torps at the mouth of the harbour.  

Therefore Japan did train and start using suicide tactics since Dec 1941.  I saw it on TV. It must be true.

Offline Blindman

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 72
the 'PROBLEM'?
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2002, 09:28:06 AM »
suicide jabo on a CV is a legit tactic as long as the CV launches more planes than it was actually designed to carry
Both side have the ability to re up with a new life instantly
its a game(y)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2002, 09:33:19 AM by Blindman »
Always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.