Author Topic: Indians,Greek/Roman Mythology & Dead Generals  (Read 942 times)

Offline Boroda

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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2002, 01:18:07 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Sure - naming for political purposes can be objectionable. Just take "USS Abraham Lincoln" - why don't we have "USS Adolph Hitler" to match it. Sure it's much better to have ships named after birds or flowers.


Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", IIRC there were battleships Zhukov, Ghengis-Khan and Patton ;)

I really like Japanese way to name ships. It's poetic and looks so absurd and beautiful!

Russian tradition is maybe the most strange: naming several battleships "Retvizan" after a Swedish vessel captured during Northern war.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 01:21:41 PM by Boroda »

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2002, 01:19:51 PM »
Boroda you have seen Dr. Strangelove right?
By all accounts, George C. Scott's character is an accurate portrayal of Curtis Lemay.
Some of the military guys were really looney.
Fortunately we had Ike as a moderating influence, so the military didn't get everything they wanted.
And even though we all say bad things about Stalin and later Soviet leaders, they never were stupid enough to send that huge Red Army buildup across the Fulda Gap, even though the balance of forces in Europe was strongly in their favor.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2002, 01:29:46 PM by funkedup »

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2002, 01:47:56 PM »
Boroda: Do you expect me to feel sorry for a defence secretary of an enemy country who signed plans of nuclear attacks against my nation?!

 Not at all. Hate and fear him all you wish. I am not sure if he really hated Russia and russians rather than it's communist oppressors but it's probably all teh same to you. But you expressed surprise that the ship in US was named for him - because of his mentall ilness, not his being an enemy of Siviet Union like most of the rest of his country.

this anecdote reflects the state of anti-communist paranoia in the US in late-40s and early-50s.

 Oh, yes - that was all paranoia. The poles in 39 and balts and finns and romanians in 40 and hungarians in 58 and czechs in 68 and afghans in 78 - they were all paranoid too and imagined things. Maybe he was so paranoid that he though soviets would get to placing missles in Cuba and suitcase nukes in New York? Oh, wait...

 And do not start a discussions on "you are bad too"... I can name plenty of examples where US invaded and subjugated independent countries in modern history. America leaves much to be desired when it comes to respect for liberty. That's not the issue.
 The issue is denigrading anyone for his medical condition.

 The guy was a secretary of defence before he got sick. Different people liked kim or disliked him.  He was allegedely not good enough even for his own president - though many sources claim he retired for health reasons, who knows - but certainly good enough for the Navy and the next president who approved the name of the ship - Eisenchower, no less.

A bronze bust of Forrestal at the mall entrance to the pentagon is inscribed as follows:

"This memorial to James Forrestal, as a spontaneous tribute to his lasting accomplishments in providing for national security and his selfless devotion to duty, was erected by thousands of his friends and co-workers of all rank and stations."



 On October 1, 1955 Secretary of the Navy, C. S. Thomas, at USS FORRESTAL's commissioning ceremony, perhaps best summarized Secretary Forrestal's myriad achievements:

"I welcome the opportunity of paying a personal tribute to my friend, and former superior, the late and genuinely lamented James Forrestal.  This nation has never had a more devoted servant, nor one with greater vision than James Forrestal.  But for his untiring efforts, brilliance and devotion, our nation would not be enjoying the tenuous peace we have today.  It is therefore most fitting and proper that this first new super carrier, representing all the best efforts of industry, science, and the Navy, should carry his name."



Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", IIRC there were battleships Zhukov, Ghengis-Khan and Patton

 Which in no way indicates his sympathy for Soviet Union - he was one of the most prominent anti-communists among US literary circles.

 miko

Offline 10Bears

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« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2002, 02:21:10 PM »
Actually Funked up, Curtis LeMay was more like the Gray Sterling charactor :)

Offline whgates3

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« Reply #19 on: December 06, 2002, 02:31:10 PM »
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Originally posted by Dune
The UH1's real name is Iroquois, which I believe is an Indian tribe in New York.


new york is a state on Iroquois territory

Offline Toad

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« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2002, 03:24:58 PM »
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Ya but whats up with the Helicopter thing.  Who decided to name all US helicopters after Indians.  I guess its only fair...we only killed 100 million of them.  Its good to be an Indian now....Casinos and helicopters......


I call.

Let's see some support for that "100 million" statement.

I think it's the purest manure.

Start your accounting with 1776 if you want to use "we" as the "US".
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline 28sweep

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« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2002, 04:22:12 PM »
Dude,

Maybe it was 80 million or even 70 million but last I checked- the estimates are very high....you know smallpox was very nasty and it was no mistake that it spread so fast. Jeffrey Amherst-the guy who Amherst college was named after- intentionally spread the disease via contaminated blankets.  He was a pioneer really-the first to use germ warfare.  The darkest moment in my country's history.....among the darkest in human history actually-ranking with the holocaust.  But hey-casinos and helicopters makes up for it right...........

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2002, 04:46:11 PM »
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Originally posted by 10Bears
Actually Funked up, Curtis LeMay was more like the Gray Sterling charactor :)


Sterling Hayden I think.

I saw a documentary recently where they found his character to be more like another SAC general.

There are some Lemay quotes (that I will try to post here) which sound eerily similar to Scott's character (Buck Turgidson).

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2002, 04:48:26 PM »
How do you think europeans acquired resistance to smallpox, plaque and multitude of other infectious deseases? By having significant chunks, often majority of the population die out many times over so that the carriers of resistance-imparting genes remained.

 Same with alcohol tolerance, fat and sugar tolerance and other things.

 Those indians had no chance to avoid epidemic sooner or later, not that I would condone the intentional contamination. People did not know about germs and quarantines then - most though it was God's way of preferring the right ones.

 About 70 million - you may want to check on a population density of primitive societies which do not even practice agriculture. It was so small that it could not even provide grounds for develop natural germs that could cause a survivable desease and resistance to it. Not the smallpox but any other that would be dangerous to europeans.

 miko

Offline wulfie

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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2002, 04:56:44 PM »
Maybe there was a 'Patton' in the *movie* Starship Troopers.

In the book, all of the assault ships were named after infantrymen who won the Medal of Honor.

Do a Medal of Honor search on 'Young, Rodger' from Ohio, USA in WW2.

Mike/wulfie

Offline JB73

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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2002, 05:53:58 PM »
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Its good to be an Indian now....Casinos and helicopters......
you on drugs!!!?!??!?!?!

how about EXTREME poverty
WORST health care in the US
LOWEST literacy rate


oh well my 2¢
I don't know what to put here yet.

Offline 10Bears

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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2002, 06:13:52 PM »
I remember when they released some tapes from the Cuban misile crisis.. they're talking and you can hear LeMay in the background "I gotta tell ya Mr. President... I say we hit em' an' hit em' HARD!!... Our casulities?... Bah humbug... 10 - 20 million tops"

Offline Toad

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« Reply #27 on: December 06, 2002, 06:15:05 PM »
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Originally posted by 28sweep
Dude,

Maybe it was 80 million or even 70 million but last I checked- the estimates are very high....


Are you still in school? Have you researched this number or just pulled it out of your..... imagination?

Are you going to stand by your claim or just admit you have absolutely no idea how many Native Americans were even in what is now the US when Columbus arrived in the New World?

And we can discuss other aspects of your sweeping generaliziations after you figure this part out, just for more fun.

Dude.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline john9001

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« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2002, 06:28:22 PM »
indians do not have to stay on reservations and take govt handouts , they can get jobs like the rest of us, i know, i worked with a lakota souix, he had a house , car, wife, kids, morgage, just like a white man ,and after work we would stop for a beer (beers) he was my friend and a ok guy.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2002, 06:28:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 28sweep
Jeffrey Amherst-the guy who Amherst college was named after- intentionally spread the disease via contaminated blankets.  The darkest moment in my country's history.....among the darkest in human history actually-ranking with the holocaust.  But hey-casinos and helicopters makes up for it right...........


Also, help me understand something here.

Are you a citizen of the same country that Jeffrey Amherst served?

Thanks in advance.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!