Author Topic: Gun control, dependency, responsibility  (Read 411 times)

Offline mauser

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Gun control, dependency, responsibility
« on: December 10, 2002, 06:43:24 PM »
After reading the "discussions" that have occurred over the past few weeks between some on this board, and then doing a little more reading and thinking, I have some misc ramblings to make on the subject.

Banning guns will be as effective as Prohibition was.  People went and made their own moonshine and smuggled it to and fro.  Crack coccaine is already illegal, people are still getting it (and often enough killing others to obtain it).  

In AH, we have "perk this, perk that" arguements over and over.  The bottom line is that if you perk something, they'll move onto something else.  I guess it's an example of human nature.  If not guns, then bows and arrows, then knives/swords (yes, swords), then clubs and sticks, then fists and feet.  If guns didn't exist, you'd have the same arguements against bows and arrows compared to knives and swords.  It's so much easier to kill with a bow, the one with the sword has no chance to get close enough.  It's so much easier to kill with a sword, the one with the knife/club won't do as much damage as one strike with a sword.  So in AH, it's not the plane, it's the pilot (or dweeb if you like).  It's not the tool, it's the person behind it.  

We were taught from a very young age to call 911 if something goes wrong and people will come to help you.  There is nothing wrong with this in some situations.  However, even 5 minutes can seem like an eternity when things go wrong.  Help may not arrive in time.  This is NOT the fault of the Law Enforcement.  They can't be everywhere at once, upon demand.  I wonder how many people really think about this.  No one wants to be involved in an "emergency" situation.  However it has been proven that although YOU did everything you could to avoid certain situations, you're still in it... now what?

When my wife and I decide to start expanding our family beyond the two of us, I know part of my responsibility will be to protect my family.   It is NOT the responsibility of anyone else to do this.  It is my job and my wife's job.  I am beginning to feel the concern, "will I be able to protect my family from the evils in the world?" as any would be and current father does.  This isn't limited to the subject of guns in self defense.  It is a concern in general.  

Hawaii is a "may issue" state from what I understand with respect to letting citizens arm themselves.   There is no concealed carry law here.  Speaking for myself, if there were one and I could get a permit, I think the way I conduct myself would change.  For the better.  I know that there is a tremendous responsibility for carrying a concealed firearm.  I would be humbled to know I have been entrusted with this power.  It's similar to the way you act when you have the power of knowledge over someone and choose not to use it to denigrate them, but to teach them.  There will be no going out looking for trouble.  It is a power that must be exercised only after all other options have been taken away.  I know for a fact that I'm not the only one with these sentiments.   You can bounce numbers all you want, but this is how I feel.


mauser

Offline ra

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Gun control, dependency, responsibility
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2002, 07:09:35 PM »
"It's not the tool, it's the person behind it. "

If outlawing guns would significantly reduce the murder rate, I would still be against it.   I wasn't that hard core about it till the Clinton circus came to town.

ra

Offline lazs2

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Gun control, dependency, responsibility
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2002, 08:40:20 AM »
I also believe that having a concealed carry permit brings out the best in people.   There are two million cc holders out there and I have not seen one conviction for a wrongful shooting.. some have had these permits for decades.  No other group has such a good record.

Think of this... we band guns for 500 fet or yards or whatever around schools... kids bring guns to school and shoot the poor defensless sheep in there because... because they know they can.  If they thought that 10% or so of the teachers probly had concealed carry permits the shooting would all but stop and... the ones that occured would end quicker.   every one of the shooting was stopped by a firearm.
lazs

Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2002, 10:07:09 AM »
Your hitting all the bad buttons!

Teachers with guns!?! Oh my, they may shoot my little Timmy cause guns make the teacher evil!

No one cares that little Timmy may be packing a shotgun under that black overcoat. Timmy's parents thing he is a good kid, cause he goes to church, lol if only they new...



:D

I know if I could get a CCW in California, it would change the way I do things in my daily life, for two reasons.

One: I would want to do nothing to risk losing it.

Two: I really do not want to have to shoot anyone.

The numbers speak for themselves. Very few CCW holders have had them revoked for breaking the law in a violent crime. I think most are pulled for traffic stuff.



P.S :Laz  did you ever call me?

Offline H. Godwineson

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« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2002, 10:15:52 AM »
Israeli teachers pack heat.  And that's a fact because I've seen it.  Their "repressed" enemies attack even their children.

Can't see it happening in America.

Shuckins

Offline bounder

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Gun control, dependency, responsibility
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2002, 10:45:04 AM »
Before reading these boards on the issue of Gun Control in the States I was pretty vehemently anti-gun (broadly speaking).

I was brought up in a house full of guns, dad's all of them. He designed gunsights (Col. Bull Simons was a fan) so I like to think I know my guns, gun code etc.

I automatically assumed that because there are more privately held guns in the US and there is an apparent high level of gun crime, that the two were somehow related. eg

guns=gun crime

It is clear to me now that the picture is much more complicated and has been distorted by bitter enemies fighting pitched political battles.

I am now calling people on this commonly held belief about the USA (that it has rampant gun crime, and that this is caused in some way by the high level of private gun ownership).

It was a myth, and I was taken in. All I can do now is hope that al gun owners are more like mauser and less like michael ryan.

I was thinking about Concealed Weapons too. You don't need many people walking about with concealed guns to make a would be assailant think twice about mugging someone. There's a great deal of added benefit there, for very little cost.

None of these things address the causes of crime itself (in its many and varied forms). I could go on as we have just been burgled (burglarized? by a burglarizer? you americans are crazy:) ) but suffice to say:

3 months ago I would have jumbed on the beet1e bandwagon without a second thought, punching all the numbers up on google to prove my point.

Today I read mausers post and thought what he says make a good deal of sense.

I for one would not want to carry a concealed weapon (where legal in the US) simply because as he points out, that is an awful lot of responsibility to do the right thing at the right time and not screw up.

Part of the Kung-Fu ethic even. Don't fight, ever, unless you absolutely have to - but then be instantaneous, unanticipated and final.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2002, 11:39:13 AM »
Well lazs your point about the concealed gun carriers actually does 'the other side good'. You talk about their good statistics.

The statistics are so good because the government screen people who want to carry a concealed gun. Yadda yadda yadda, hope you see how this could be used by the other side.

Of course there are obvious responses to this argument, but that's besides the point.

Offline mauser

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« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2002, 12:11:05 PM »
Thanks all for your supportive replies.  I tried to convey some of my feelings to my wife, who believed that having more guns out there equates to having more people shooting each other.  It's a difficult thing to get past when it's been ingrained by the various media.  Fortunately there are states which have CCW laws and are prime examples of having private citizens carrying - without having daily shootouts.  If such things actually occurred, the media would have a field day.  But you don't really hear about a neighbor shooting another EVERY night on the evening news.  They must be doing something right apparently.  When I wrote about how I would conduct myself had I an opportunity to get a CCW permit, I knew I wasn't alone in my sentiments.  On the various gun-related forums I visit, I don't see many militia types, or the rambo types.  I find that they are folks with a sound mind who don't go out looking for trouble or brag that they can kill x number of people with their chosen firearm.  

In fact, members of the Law Enforcement frequent those forums also.  I especially pay attention to them because I wonder how they feel about having citizens carry.  Just yesterday I looked in the 1911 forums and searched on that and found a post from a LEO who said that in general they support citizens having CCW permits.  As long as the citizen declares to the LEO that he/she has a CCW and is armed/unarmed when in a traffic stop situation for example, all is well.  What got me was how many LEOs consider you on THEIR SIDE when they find out you have a CCW permit.  However, it was also mentioned that LE administrators often have opposite views from their own officers, and LE agencies in heavily anti-gun states will tend to follow the state's attitudes (hence what seems to be here in Hawaii).  

Israel is an extreme example of why individuals need to have a right to protect themselves.  Here, the hollywood types and the politico types who are for banning firearms most likely have their own bodyguards who are armed and follow them around everywhere.  Of course not all do, but this makes it unfair for the average citizen who can't afford to hire their own bodyguards.  Just because I am not rich/famous/powerful does not mean I should not have all the options to protect myself or my family.  That sounds like elitism.  I didn't know Israeli teachers are armed, but am not surprised.  That must be another thing to mention to those who are opposed to carrying.  Israeli teachers are not some specially bred and trained superhumans - they are just like any other teacher anywhere on the planet.  

Thank you bounder for your candid reply.  I actually do not own a firearm, having last shot ten years ago on my high school shooting team.  I have a recurve bow set up for target shooting.  However, I support the right to keep and bear arms because it makes sense.  I want the option, the freedom to choose, on my own, whether I want to arm myself or not.  I (and many, many others) are aware of the responsibilities that come with owning a firearm.  Yes, it is exactly the same with being proficient in a martial art.  They are taught (the good schools anyway) not to seek confrontation, to avoid it as much as possible not only because they are able to do more harm than the average citizen, but because it is the right thing to do.  

My wife is still uneasy about firearms, but I think I did convince her that it is unfair that some of the folks on the tv screen (we were watching "Entertainment Tonight" - mostly she watches anyway) can have armed bodyguards to protect them whenever they wish and we, being poor relative to them, do not have that option.  Although I can't carry here, I am still considering options to arm myself when we eventually move out of the condo and into a house.  We will do everything we can to make ourselves a difficult burglary target.  Whatever I decide, I do not ever want to find my family threatened by a bunch of idiots with knives and screwdrivers.  If I do decide to arm myself with a firearm, I will try to seek as much knowledge as I can BEYOND the mandatory safety class.  Maybe a trip to take a class at Gunsite.  It will be a big decision and will entail responsibilities.  However I am thankful that at least the option is still open for me.  

mauser

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2002, 01:21:26 PM »
Bounder/mauser/lazs et al. Another gun thread!  Oh well, this is the most sensible one I've seen so far, so let's try to keep it one in which we air our views, but accept the views of others.

I said to lazs a long time ago that I did not support a movement designed to confiscate HIS guns. But I was pretty upset by all the shooting of people that does take place. How do we keep guns out of the hands of bad guys?

Pack some heat, as permitted with a CCW permit for protection when you go out, but the very reason for doing this is because there are many guns that HAVE found their way into evil hands. The history of US gun ownership is long and cannot be changed. In other countries, the history is different, and that's why I feel safe in my environment, unarmed.

I have learned a lot from these gun threads. Clearly, guns make a lot of people happy. But I still feel that a guns free-for-all comes at a price.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2002, 02:46:31 PM »
st santa... wrong... in most states that have concealed carry you don't have to be screened any more than you would to simply buy a gun.   The requirements are not strict.

beetle... I don't believe in picking and choosing who can own a gun other than insanity.   If the person is out of prison then we musta thought he was ready for full citizenship within society..

I believe, like our forefathers that the right to keep and bear arms is a right and a necessity to prevent tyranny from within and without.   so long as even on criminal has a gun or can take from me by force... I will exercise my right to defend myself with the best possible tool.

bounder... you don't have to carry a firearm and I will respect your feelings about not doing so.... at the same time... be aware that you are getting a free ride, deterance wise, from those who are willing to take on the responsibility.    fortunately... that is the beautyu of concealed carry laws... the bad guys don't know if you are helpless or not.  

What kinda frosts me is neigbors trying to destroy my gun rights and the second amendment when they are benifieting by me having a gun im my house... england and australia have 50% of their burglaries being  "hot"  the  people are home.   It is like 10% here.   The deterance is what these guys are trying to get rid of.

beetlke... I don't care if you let "his" meaning lazs, have guns or not... I don't want you taking guns away from any law abiding citizen.

The real way to lower the rates have to do with much higher penalties for gun crime while at the same time having more liberal concealed carry laws.   Arm the good guys but make it prohibitively expensive (jail time wise) for the bad guys to use guns.... even stealing a gun would be considered a gun crime... if there were a mandatory 10 year sentance say for stealing a gun.... houses would be cleaned out by burglars except for the gun.    Only the dumbest of the dumb crooks steals mail for instance.
lazs

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2002, 09:06:25 AM »
Wrong? I can't be wrong!

The facts dinnae get it right, that's it.