Author Topic: Bomber stuff....What I want to see...  (Read 435 times)

Hans

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« on: August 02, 1999, 03:57:00 AM »
Since this an unofficial fresh start for online flight simming I wanted to ask a few things about high altitude level bombing.

When I played warbirds I liked flying the bombers.  Dogfighting is fun, but I like winning the "war" instead of unending fighter engagments that produced no effect.  I liked the warbirds bombers, particularily when maned gunning was added.

Some people asked for mid-flight gunner sign ups.  Thats nice, but cannot be counted on.  I also like to man the guns too.  Since flying a bomber is mostly flying an airliner (you keep the pointy end into the forward and the oily side down) it wasn't too difficult to fly one.  There are really only two areas of interest when talking high alt bombing...the bomb run, and the air to air combat with the machine guns.  Doing those things is why I want to fly a bomber.

What I would like to see are three things.  An autopilot that will follow pre-mission set of waypoints you designate on a map with speeds and altitudes, a master gun turret control, and targets that need to be carpet bombed (large in size but needing litterally tons of ordnance to demolish....aka factory zones in citys).

First, bombing targets.  Once near the target you go off autopilot and into the bombadier position to manually bomb the target (autopilot gets you there, but you need to do the bomb run yourself).  No more single bomb per target please.  I want to drop an entire stick of bombs all at once and see those long multiple explosion craterfests that result.  Maybe even add in a slight bomb spread to the bombs to prevent truely pinpoint acurate bombing (bombs spreading out left and right after they drop).  Another thing I wanted to see was a ground target thats tailor made for carpet bombing.  In other words one that would take alot more damage when hit multiple times in rapid succession (aka seconds between hits) than getting bombed lightly over a long period of time.  This promotes large formations bombing the same target.  Its not enough to just put four bombs thru the roof and disrupt the enemy during the time they need to put plywood over the holes....its better to overwhelm them with impossible levels of damage to control at once.  Even if it is a target that requires three plane loads of bombs in a few minutes time, or it is not destroyed.  Anything less than what is needed means you wasted your time and should have bombed a smaller, secondary target.

When it comes to maning the guns, if we had a master gun control and autopilot/copilot we can trust, then we wouldn't necessarily need otto.  Basically you get a full 360 degree panning turret that can also aim straight up and down.  If a gun turret can fire in the current aim point....it does.  B29s had this sort of gun control setup (except the tail gun which was a seperate gun point).  Even if this was simply gun grouping from the current turret it would be enough (aka top turret firing up and to the 5 oclock position also fires the tail turret and right waist gun of a B-17).  This sort of thing means we probably won't need multiple people crewing a single bomber, but thats the way it usually works anyways in the game.  Why gun, when you can bring your own bomber with?

Maybe I am asking alot?  Maybe this is already the way it is going to be?  I don't know.  I do know that is what I thought WWII bombing was.  I hope to see it.

Hans, CO of the Mercenries sqaudron.

Offline lasse

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 1999, 04:36:00 AM »
I like all these things this man wants, special this "An autopilot that will follow pre-mission set of waypoints you designate on a map with speeds and altitudes"

Sounds so cool.



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lasse-
You smell that? Do you smell that?
Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
The smell, you know that gasoline smell, smelled like victory.

Offline Gazoo

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 1999, 07:18:00 AM »
I disagree with the preset waypoints.  When I started doing the odd buff run in WB, one of the hardest things was to get lined up on target.  Buffing would become VERY dull if Autopilot took me to the run so I could "press the button".  

One of the most important people on a bomber was the navigator.  This to me is your job while on the way to target.  

I would like to see TRUE navigation required.  With Winds aloft differing through various layers.  No GPS positioning.  Now all of a sudden your bombing run is quite busy.  Not only do you have to navigate, you need to calculate your offset of the bomb run due to the various winds.  That would truely take some skill.


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oooo 111th Fighter Group

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 1999, 09:36:00 AM »
Well....  How about some WIND! That would be fun all around and could make high altitude bombing a real challange.  Give the bomber a sight that requires setting in Plane Speed, Wind Speed and Wind Direction and have him cross his fingers!!
  However it's done, I agree that the "laser" bombing has to STOP!  It's just plain silly.

Oops!   I just saw that "Gazoo" covered most of this on the above post  

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Otto CO 111th Fighter Group          ziggy2@home.com            
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[This message has been edited by oooo 111th Fighter Group (edited 08-02-1999).]

[This message has been edited by oooo 111th Fighter Group (edited 08-02-1999).]

Offline shdo

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 1999, 11:00:00 AM »
just one thing.  both guys have good ideas but if you have to spend all the flight navigating you won't be able to defend yourself and conversly if you spend the whole time defending yourself you won't have time to navigate.

shdo

Hans

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 1999, 07:39:00 PM »
I understand what Gazoo is saying.  I had thought about navigating as another option that could add to the experience of bombing....but then you run into some problems.

Like what shdo said, if you are siting at the navigator table with your slide rule, you are not manning a turret.  You would be defenseless.

You would also need to do the same for fighters when it comes to navigation.  They would need to be equal with bombers or it isn't fair.

Still, having asked for waypoints I also figured out you would need to have the ability to change them mid mission (things change when airborn often....you may need to bomb something else all of a sudden).  So a navigator station of sorts would need to be included.

OR.

Don't bother with waypoints at all, but have an autopilot/copilot that has settings for speed, altitude and heading.  Once in formation just turn it on and man the guns.

My biggest thrills when piloting a bomber is....well...not piloting one.  Like I mentioned, bombing & gunning are the fun parts.  Those things are what I want to do.

Hans, CO of the Mercenaries.

roblex

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 1999, 07:52:00 AM »

What we need is a '.formate gazoo' command that puts us in a nice box formation behind Gazoo so we can concentrate on gunning while Gazoo does the Navigating  

If you want to get rid of Otto then we need to link all the guns BUT with a small 'hand-off' delay when a target moves from one turret field to another. To cope with having to gun during a bomb run we need an autodrop facility that allows an inaccurate carpet bombing to occur near a pre-specified point. Set up the target in advance by clicking on the map and if you are not in the bombadier position it will drop everything in the general region. If you are in the bombadier position then you can bomb manually and the auto will not happen. As you have to choose the target in advance then you will not be able to zoom the map in all the way so you will not be able to target a specific structure.  Last week in a Scenario I was one minute from dropping when I got attacked by fighters and had to man the guns so never dropped. In real life the bombs would have been dropped hastily on the target while the gunners defended.

Roblex

Offline Gazoo

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 1999, 08:13:00 AM »
I think the biggest problem with gunning is that it was a Multi Man crew that we are trying to do with 1 man.  Each person wants something different in his "bombing experience".

Really I think bombing is going to remain somewhat arcadish until we get the multiman crews.  AI controlled ANYTHING will always get complaints from players.

Not sure what the answer is, but the carpet bombing targets seams to be a large issue that everyone wants.


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7Cav

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 1999, 02:00:00 PM »
Bombers Wishlist continued:

1>Fire Extinquishers for individual engines,  with possable wing fires if engine fires not put out.
2>Gun Turret Jams possable as a dammage.
3>More realistic Bomb sight, corrections needed to put eggs on target (wind/speed/alt).
4>Gunners/Ammo can move to another position. Would be nice if a waist gunner could man the tail gun if that gunner was injured, or ammo transfered to a more critical gun(time delay added for crewmember doing the transfer).
5>Instead of super autopliot that follows waypoints, have IP points on maps that will line you up on target. (Supplemental Bombing Navigational aids).
6>Transferable fuel between tanks.


That's quite a bit, so I will leave it at that :-)

Offline Sharky

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 1999, 03:20:00 PM »
Hey Guys,

First of all I never, I mean never, fly bombers but I love to escort them, especially with that shiny new Mustang HT and the boys are putting the finishing touches on for me    

One thing I would like to see in the bombing area is to make all the bombs drop at once.  The "drop a bomb there goes the tower, jink, drop a bomb there goes a hanger, jink, drop a bomb etc.

One of the things this would do is force bombers to fly in groups to achieve anything, and of couse a group would need escorts and that would force the enemy to send up interceptors and that would force the escorts to defend the bombers.... WAIT... thats an Air War!!!!  

Now bomber guys don't flame me for my discription of a bombing run, I know I made it sound a lot easier than it is, and it takes a lot of skill to do it.

Sharky Out

[This message has been edited by Sharky (edited 08-04-1999).]

Samart

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 1999, 04:39:00 PM »
Right on about the extingushers  (sp)  I don't want my engine to just slowly crap out.  If I want to help my bomber out, then let me!!!  

NO>....on the preassigned flight.  Lets make it like the real bombers.  My grandfather was a bombadier in the 450th BG flying B-24's.  What I wouldn't do just to be able to actually see a realistic aiming for the bombadiers.....and the multiple salvo release being the norm.  Blowing up large portions of CITIES and FACTORIES.....not a group of buildings.....ACTUAL CITIES where you have to find your target!!!!!  (in amongst the houses and schools and buildings)

Thats all I got!!

Sam

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450th BG(H)
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roblex

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 1999, 07:12:00 AM »
Sharkey,  I agree that pinpoint bombing by B17s is unrealistic but also remember that none of our games have the sort of targets that carpet bombing works on.  Also we are not likely to have the number of bombers flying together that we had in real life. It is not a question of 'forcing' buff pilots to fly together, there just are not enough buff pilots around to get historical numbers in aech raid.   Moving away from B17s to the  light bombers you will find that it IS realistic and historical to choose a small target and just drop a few of your boms then come back and try again if needed, think about a B25 attacking shipping.  I often fly Mosquito bombers and that was definately designed for dropping one bomb on each target. It was the cruise missile of its day  

Rob

funked

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 1999, 11:30:00 AM »
If we making bomb targeting more realistic (harder than WB), we need to make the bomb effects more realistic.  

I don't think these game designers understand the power of a 500lb bomb.  It will RUIN YOUR DAY if you are anywhere nearby.  

Seeing a fuel tank take a direct 500lb bomb hit and survive in WB makes me wanna puke.  

The targets you hit to stop operations at a real airfield are the airplanes.  Give us dispersed soft targets (instead of panzerfuel and panzerhut) and realistic bomb effects.  Then I won't mind having to toggle all my bombs at once or having them drift a bit.

Also we need to get more realistic loadouts.  12 bombs was standard for a long-range B-17 mission but the plane could hold a bit more.  Same for the B-25.  Hell the B-25C could carry about 2000lb bombload on the wings alone.  The WB B-25C has neither the wing bomb racks nor the ventral turret!

Whew.  

Offline Sharky

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Bomber stuff....What I want to see...
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 1999, 02:06:00 PM »
Hey Roblex,

If I understand what Pyro said in his post that there will be a lot more to bomb in AH.  But maybe you or the other buffers can answer a question I have.  When I started flying WB it was fairly common to see a country channel call for a "buff raid on F-XX forming at F-XX" and within a few minutes you would find a pretty good group of buffs forming for the raid and a good sized group of fighters forming for escort.  Why don't I see this anymore? I can remember the last time I saw more than a single high altitude buff in the arena and seeing a bomber other than a B-25 skiming the waves is getting pretty rare.

Sharky Out