Author Topic: guns on ships  (Read 561 times)

Offline corey

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guns on ships
« on: December 12, 2002, 06:05:15 PM »
i want it so you can use all the guns on the ships and i would like it so you can control a fleet like a pt boat if you're the captain.

Offline Jester

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guns on ships
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2002, 06:17:48 PM »
I don't know about running like a PT Boat ... real ships don't move that way.

I WOULD like to see some of the following on future releases for the Fleets:

1. Seperate CV & CA Fleets all the time.
2. All guns manable on every ship.
3. Enemy ships to show on radar so you can engage them with ships guns more efectively.
4. A system for directing fire from the air from a nearby fleet (something like what was available for the artillery in DOA.)
5. A catapult seaplane available from one of the CA's for that purpose.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2002, 06:34:07 PM by Jester »
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Offline whgates3

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guns on ships
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2002, 07:50:54 PM »
hurricat would rool & would avoid the programming difficulties of adding seaplanes. some sort of spotting for the big guns would be a big help barring that some better simulated binoculars for the gunners.  the WWII ships carried some amazing optics & fire control systems

Offline Shadowmyst

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catapult seaplane
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2002, 08:23:01 PM »
I really like that idea of a catapult seaplane. It would provide another launch option for fleets to provide air surveillance and limited airpower. Hope that this could be incorporated in the game in the near future.
Also I hope that all of the fleets guns will be mannable in the coming releases.  Not sure if the DD's main batteries are 3 or 5 in, but manning those as well would be a welcome addition to fleet firepower.

Salud'

Offline Sabre

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guns on ships
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2002, 09:35:09 AM »
Reposting this, as it appears sanguin to the topic...
_____________________________ _______________________
The Folly of Naval Operations in AH

Currently in the Aces High Main Arena environment, naval forces play a relatively minor role.  The most usual role of the standard AH task group, or TG (1xCV, 1xCA, 4xDE), is to place it within visual range of an enemy shore base and attempt to capture the base.  A combination of air-to-ground attacks (Jabo strikes) and shore bombardment is used to destroy the town and eliminate defenses, followed by an amphibious assault or airborne troop drop to affect the capture.  If the land base mounts any kind of defense, such an attack is fairly easy to thwart.  The question is, what is the best and proper use of naval forces in the AH MA?  This piece is intended to generate discussion towards this end.

Basically, it is easier to sink the CV than it is for the CV-based force to render an airfield inoperable and ready for capture.  Eight thousand pounds of bombs will sink the CV, resulting in the entire remaining TG vanishing 10 minutes later, to reappear back at it’s home port.  It can than take an hour or more to get this fleet back into position off shore of the enemy base.  Contrast this with what it takes to render a base defenseless.  It takes 12,000 lbs. of bombs to destroy all the hangers at a small base, 8,000 lbs. to destroy the shore batteries, over a thousand more to destroy all the AAA, and several thousand more beyond that to level the town in preparation for capture.  Now figure in the fact that hangers rebuild in 15 minutes – while destroyed ships do not – and you see why the land base holds the upper hand in an even contest between naval and land-based forces.  By even, I mean the same number of AH players on each side.

Historically, this is understandable.  Sea-based air power will loose against land-based air when numbers, pilot quality, intel, and technology are reasonably even.  Aircraft carriers are inherently more fragile than a base built on terra firma.  They are much more expensively, both in terms of initial cost to build and to man/operate/maintain, than an airbase.  The main, indeed the only advantage that naval forces have lies in their mobility.  They can move rapidly, not just tactically but strategically, and are thus more difficult to pinpoint for attack.  This mobility also allows them to attack at an unexpected point, and from an unexpected direction.  This was proven quite decisively during the 2001 AH scenario, “Hostile Shores.”  During frames 1 and 2, the lack of exact positions for the RN carriers prevented the Luftwaffe from getting close enough to put even one bomb on a British ship.  Conversely, in frame 3 the Luftwaffe had perfect position information on the Royal Navy carriers, thanks to the nearly invulnerable Ar234 reconnaissance planes made available to them.  The result? “Scratch one flattop.”

This is all fine and good in a scenario environment.  However, the MA practice of “CV camping” essentially takes away the only two advantages the naval force has, mobility and stealth.  This practice is understandable if one considers a couple of key, non-realistic factors in the Main Arena.  First, the big guns of the TG, the main battery of the attendant cruiser, has to be within easy visual range to be affective.  This is because (a) the waterline gun directing hampers effective targeting and (2) the need for a direct hit on by naval artillery to destroy a target.  Second, the slow speed of the LVT amphibious assault vehicles requires the fleet to be within shouting distance of the objective.  The latter was true in real life of course, but in real life the amphibious ships and naval gunfire support ships were not tied by an invisible tether to the aircraft carriers.  As it stands now naval forces in AH in general, and the aircraft carrier in particular, are mostly just window dressing.  They do not come close to having the impact on “the War” that the flattops had in real life.

How can we redress the shortcomings of naval forces in AH?  Should we even try?  It is after all primarily an air combat simulation.  The answer to this last question is “yes.”  If Aces High is to continue to evolve towards the goal of being the best WWII air combat simulation on the market, it must find a better way to represent the profound impact naval forces (particularly naval aviation) had on that conflict.  Keeping in mind the primary emphasis of the MA, i.e. intense and constant action, there are some things that can be done to influence players to utilize naval forces in a more historical, less “gamey” fashion.  I say influence players, not make them.  Excessive rules tend to make people resentful.  Far better to design the game mechanics in such a way as to reward proper behavior rather than dictate it.

First, we can acknowledge the fact that the amphibious assault craft and cruisers (and, hopefully, battleships:)) need to operate in littoral waters (i.e. shallow coastal areas), but that the carriers do not.  Separate the current standard MA fleet into two separate types of fleets, the CV battle group (CVBG) and the Amphibious Assault Group (AAG).  The AAG would have LVT’s enabled, but the CVBG would not.  Likewise, the AAG would have two cruisers at its core but no carriers, while the CVBG would have two carriers at its core but no cruisers.

Second, update the damage model of ships in general to allow them to take incremental damage, instead of the “completely operation or sunk” model we have now.  Damaged subsystems such as guns, vehicle spawning (damaged elevators for CV’s, troop transports – I can hope, can’t I – for AAG’s) would rebuild over time, just as damaged objects at land bases.  This would encourage players to consider withdrawing damaged fleets to allow for repairs, rather than the do-or-die mentality that presides over naval operations in the MA today.

Third, make naval gunfire the awesome and terrible weapon it was.  Add more realistic blast radius effects for all naval caliber weapons, as well as making the main guns of the destroyer escorts player controllable.  Move gunnery control up to the crow’s nest were it belongs, with the option to slave multiple turrets to a single gun director.

Finally, give players direct control over the helm, allowing them to control speed and heading.  So long as the TG commander stays “on the bridge”, allow him/her to con the ship manually.  As soon as they jump to a vehicle or another base/fleet, the fleet returns to its waypoint-guided course.

These are just the ideas I’ve collected so far.  I’m sure others have other suggestions.
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Jester

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guns on ships
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2002, 01:32:59 PM »
Sabre, the next round is on me! !

Add a cat plane to your list where you could direct naval gunfire and you would have it all.
Lt. JESTER
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Offline Sabre

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guns on ships
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2002, 04:06:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Andijg
Sabre, the next round is on me! !

Add a cat plane to your list where you could direct naval gunfire and you would have it all.


Ooooohhhh yeah, Baby!
Sabre
"The urge to save humanity almost always masks a desire to rule it."

Offline Ecliptik

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guns on ships
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2002, 01:54:09 AM »
Very, very nice write up, leaving out one final thing:  Terrain.

As it is now, AH maps do not support naval warfare.  If the war is fought entirely on one landmass, or an archipelago of closely spaced islands, battles fought from one airfield to the next will always result in faster advance, and advances are easier to hold on to.

I would like to see at least one map in AH where naval power is the key factor.  Have each country begin on seperate landmasses that are seperated by vast seas impractical to cross with only aircraft  (Ie, only heavy bombers would have the range to fly a two-way trip).  Each country should have more ports than it has airfields, making naval power the primary power.

In order that CV's don't all take ages to get back into the fight, there could be a few small islands in the middle of the seas, much like Pearl Harbor, which have only ports, no airfields.  These would be important staging bases and would be highly important to capture.

A map like this, combined with Sabre's ideas, would be the one thing I desire in AH above all else.

A few more things could also be implemented to spice up naval combat:  For one, submarines, and make the destroyers escorting the carriers have ASM capabilities, and add ASM destroyer groups that could be controlled by players like CV groups.   Another thing is AI supply convoys, much like the truck convoys and trains over land, except at sea, consisting of things like cargo freighters, troop transports, and tankers, escorted by a few destroyers.

Offline Sabre

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guns on ships
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2002, 10:55:08 AM »
Quote
A few more things could also be implemented to spice up naval combat: For one, submarines, and make the destroyers escorting the carriers have ASM capabilities, and add ASM destroyer groups that could be controlled by players like CV groups. Another thing is AI supply convoys, much like the truck convoys and trains over land, except at sea, consisting of things like cargo freighters, troop transports, and tankers, escorted by a few destroyers.


All in the works, according to HiTech.
Sabre
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Offline Turbot

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guns on ships
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2002, 11:16:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sabre
Reposting this, as it appears sanguin to the topic...
_____________________________ _______________________
The Folly of Naval Operations in AH


First, we can acknowledge the fact that the amphibious assault craft and cruisers (and, hopefully, battleships:)) need to operate in littoral waters (i.e. shallow coastal areas), but that the carriers do not.  Separate the current standard MA fleet into two separate types of fleets, the CV battle group (CVBG) and the Amphibious Assault Group (AAG).  The AAG would have LVT’s enabled, but the CVBG would not.  Likewise, the AAG would have two cruisers at its core but no carriers, while the CVBG would have two carriers at its core but no cruisers.

Second, update the damage model of ships in general to allow them to take incremental damage, instead of the “completely operation or sunk” model we have now.  Damaged subsystems such as guns, vehicle spawning (damaged elevators for CV’s, troop transports – I can hope, can’t I – for AAG’s) would rebuild over time, just as damaged objects at land bases.  This would encourage players to consider withdrawing damaged fleets to allow for repairs, rather than the do-or-die mentality that presides over naval operations in the MA today.

Third, make naval gunfire the awesome and terrible weapon it was.  Add more realistic blast radius effects for all naval caliber weapons, as well as making the main guns of the destroyer escorts player controllable.  Move gunnery control up to the crow’s nest were it belongs, with the option to slave multiple turrets to a single gun director.

Finally, give players direct control over the helm, allowing them to control speed and heading.  So long as the TG commander stays “on the bridge”, allow him/her to con the ship manually.  As soon as they jump to a vehicle or another base/fleet, the fleet returns to its waypoint-guided course.

These are just the ideas I’ve collected so far.  I’m sure others have other suggestions.



Some great ideas, I hope hitech also thought so when/if he read this.

Offline AtmkRstr

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guns on ships
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2002, 01:10:37 PM »
When your CV has unlimited repawns, Quakish tactics are effective tactics, and somtimes the most effective tactics.  I think the 15 repsawn time is much too short and if it was longer people would change the tactics by atleast keeping the CV a bit further away from the shore.

I like the AAG idea, but I think that increasing CV spawn time would work as a short term fix.

Offline Turbot

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guns on ships
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2002, 02:13:22 PM »
I have thought also you should have to destroy all the ships to eleiminate the task group, else the ships would regenerate over some amount of time.  Perhaps even make the CV the last thing to sink, with it's destruction tied to the fate of the other ships as well as a certain amount of direct damage.  

This would make the suicide pilots job a bit more difficult, and this is not a bad thing.