Author Topic: Gun Debaters, Read this and tell me what you think.  (Read 1295 times)

Offline aknimitz

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« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2002, 10:05:53 PM »
Toad,

Are you suggesting that this case, the case of a child molestee shooting the molestor, is justification to have stricter gun control?

Nim

Offline Toad

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« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2002, 10:35:42 PM »
Not at all.

I'm suggesting that ANYONE that uses a firearm to shoot another person in an "after the fact" situation needs to be punished. Severely.

For example, if this guy had killed the priest..... months or years or whatever after the alleged molestation... would they still let him off the hook for murder?

The only difference here is that he failed to kill the priest and only wounded him.

I can see a woman shooting a guy in the act of raping her.

I can't see a woman finding a guy who raped her and shooting him a year later.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2002, 11:52:17 PM »
Sorry Toad, you have stopped making sense.

The fact that a gun was used does not matter here.  Its that simple.  The fact that he tried to kill someone does.

Its somewhat ironic actually.  Less strictness was used due to the circumstances of the crime due to the molestation of a child, where as you feel it should have been worse simply because he used a gun.

No message is being sent other than "leave our children alone".

AKDejaVu
« Last Edit: December 18, 2002, 11:58:01 PM by AKDejaVu »

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2002, 11:55:09 PM »
As far as the gun control issue, the NRA has pushed for enforcement of existing gun laws...which afaik from reading the story, hasn't been done in this case.  The man showed up with a gun in hand to confront someone who he says molested him.  That is a separate case entirely, and should have been run through the legal system to prove it one way or the other, as far as the legal system is concerned.  Then punish accordingly, if proof is forthcoming to a conviction.  Very hard to prove molestation claims..one person's word against the other most of the time, unless there are witnesses or other victims come forth to testify.  Seems like it would be a long, nasty court hearing, with the victim ultimately losing for lack of convicting proof, i.e. the defendant is innocent until proven guilty.  There is also the possibility the shooter was simply lying about the molestation part, to justify an attack on the priest for other reasons.

If the man was molested, then it's to his credit he didn't kill the priest.  He did take the law into his own hands however, and that was wrong too.

There was a case years ago, where a man killed his 15 year old son's karate instructor, who had molested his son.  The actual shooting was shown on TV, as the father stepped out from behind some lockers at an airport as the defendant was being escorted by police for transport.  Some of you may remember seeing this on one of those Court TV shows, as the father stepped out with a .38 revolver and shot the molestor in the head from behind at point blank range, killing him as he was being escorted by two police detectives.  The molestor had a smug grin on his face as he looked at the camera...and never knew what hit him.  It was similar to when Jack Ruby killed Oswald, in that it was captured on film.  I never heard what happened to the father as a result.  He probably got some prison time, but don't know how severe.  Certainly the circumstances would seem to justify the father's actions.  If I was on the jury, I would not have pushed for any prison time, as I would feel the man was justified in the shooting.  The damage done to a molestation victim lasts their entire lifetime, sometimes causing extreme psychological damage.

The real truth is, we don't know the circumstances just by reading the paper or watching the news.  You would have to be on the jury to hear all the evidence.  In the case of the priest, it would be understandable why the shooter confronted him, if indeed the priest did molest him.  Could be the priest had a reputation for molesting alter boys, and that may be why the jury was sympathetic toward the shooter.  I'm also of a mind that the community where this happened, should handle it as they see fit.

What do I think?  Imo, the boy was lucky he didn't kill anyone.  He should have to face the music for his assault on the priest.  Whether that means jail time or strictly supervised probation for breaking gun laws.  Like I said, we don't know the entire circumstances, and it would be a tough call for an uninformed outsider.  Either way, it is vigilantism, and it is said, he who lives by the gun, dies by the gun.  In that respect, I hope the shooter has a sense that justice has been served.  He does need some supervision and guidance in his life, and should not get away  with a pat on the back for doing a good job.  He did wrong, and needs to know it.  It is a job for strong and respected community leaders to handle.


Les

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2002, 12:18:09 AM »
"Jury clears man who shot priest he accused of abuse "

Hmmm liberal dilemma.  Hatred of clergy vs. fear of guns.  Can't decide.  :)

Offline rc51

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« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2002, 01:43:02 AM »
What ever happend to that wonerfull feeling of beating the crap out of someone?
I mean really a gun was too easy and painless for the padre!
:eek:

Offline Toad

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« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2002, 04:59:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu
The fact that a gun was used does not matter here.  Its that simple.  The fact that he tried to kill someone does.


.....No message is being sent other than "leave our children alone".

AKDejaVu


Disagree. Either way, in fact BOTH ways, gun use and attempted murder should not be given a societal "look the other way".

I don't think that is the primary message that was sent. I think the primary message is "in molestation it's OK to take the law into your own hands."

I think it says some "reasons" make it ok to be a vigilante. Society encourages vigilantism at its own peril. It is most definitely a two edged sword.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline SirLoin

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« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2002, 07:16:51 AM »
Get ready for Death Wish 5.
**JOKER'S JOKERS**

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2002, 10:29:40 AM »
I believe that there should be a seperate and mandatory sentance for violent crimes committed with a firearm.   I believe that it would do a lot to stop gun crime... I also believe that there should be less restrictions on owning guns... you can own em.... you can carry em... you just can't comit crime with em.  Perhaps the mandatory gun sentance would not apply in this case due to temporary insanity?

as for child molesters...  The reason we see so many people attempting to kill child molesters is because the law doesn't.   Child molesters either need to be put away forever or executed.. they can't be "cured".  People have no respect for a legal system that allows these sick fuks to continue ruining childrens lives.   I know of only one person who had a relative that was molested.. the molester is out now.    Ask ten people if they think that child molesters should be let back out on societey then look at the sentences give to child molesters.

I think the main point of the story is that, at the very least, in the case of child molesters... people have no faith in the justice system.  
lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2002, 11:33:38 PM »
Man gets 12 years in prison for 23rd-floor dog drop

Quote
NEW YORK (AP) -- A man who threw his girlfriend's dog off her 23rd-floor balcony was sentenced Thursday to 12 years in prison for animal cruelty and other charges related to stalking the woman.

John Jefferson, 43, pleaded guilty December 5 to robbery, burglary, stalking, criminal contempt and animal cruelty. The judge said two of the 12 years were for the dog, Ribsy.


At lease we don't send mixed signals eh? Take a pot shot at someone but DO NOT drop a dog 23 floors.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2002, 12:07:39 AM »
Man toad.. are you on medication or something?

You're comparing a stalker conviction to this initial argument?

Dude... stop for a moment and think about something... The original news article had nothing to do with taking pot shots at someone.  It had to do with someone confronting an aleged rapist.  The defendant could have been using a knife or a baseball bat... but the charges still would have stemmed from his actions against the priest.  THE GUN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHARGES.

Now, you bring a stalker conviction in and compare the two?  What the hell are you thinking toad?

Maybe you need a break or something... because you've simply stopped making sense.

AKDejaVu

Offline Toad

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« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2002, 12:17:09 AM »
I'm thinking you can shoot someone and walk away totally free.

But if you kill a dog, you're doing time.

Now I generally like most dogs more than I like most people.

But that setup ain't right.

And, the way I see it, publicized judgements like these make it even easier for the twisted ones amongst us to make the leap to using firearms against other humans as if there's nothing wrong with that idea.

Beyond that, ball bats, sharp instruments, tire irons.... it's immaterial. The message is human life is worth less than a dog's. An attempt to end a human life is....... a forgettable, minor faux pas. Tout va bien! On with your life, you little scamp!

« Last Edit: December 20, 2002, 12:32:57 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2002, 07:37:20 AM »
Toad, the person was on a restraining order that he violated, he then held a girl hostage with a knife to her throat after throwing her dog off of a balcony window.  I think that the article focusses on the "crimes against the dog" speak highly for the state of the American press these days... and that you don't quite realize it speak less highly for your objectivity these days.

The judge said 2 years of the sentance was for killing the dog.  That means 10 years was for everything else.  He was already going to jail.

Once again... you're having an extreme amount of difficulty seeing the difference between the two cases.  Haven't you wondered why you're the only one really making this into a gun issue?  I mean, nobody that you typically end up arguing with has even made a showing here?

Come now Toad, you're simply out in left field on this one.

By the way... "I'm thinking you can shoot someone and walk away totally free." is partly true... all you have to do is let them rape you first.  Yep, this guy got off scott free.  :rolleyes:

AKDejaVu

Offline Toad

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« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2002, 07:41:52 AM »
Perhaps.

Perhaps a slide into vigilantism raises no eyebrows anymore.

Perhaps Michael Moore should look into this...... he could call this one "Dancing with Altar Boys".............
« Last Edit: December 20, 2002, 07:49:53 AM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2002, 08:20:30 AM »
well.... vigilantism... I may sink to vigilantism if say... a child of mine had great harm inflicted upon them and.... I KNEW the justice system would fail to punish the offender.   For instance... if you beat up a husband of your daughter who beat her... Are you a vigilante?   yep.   What if someone tortured and killed your child and got a 5 year sentence?   Perhaps vigilantism is a way to promote better laws?   Perhaps juries aresending a message that needs to be sent?

In Ca.  a woman in grass valley (can't recall her name) shot and killed a mollester of her son roight in court..  She was convicted and sentenced to a light sentence but was released on a hardship a few years latter.. she had cancer.

I think that juries should hand out lighter sentences for vigilantes than for criminals... If I want to punish one behavior more than the other then it would be the criminal one.
lazs