What exactly does the pilot of a modern airliner do?

[miko2d]

Thrawn: You mean all the super benevolent corpoations won't just pocket the profits??  But pass it on to the consumers??

 With a free market they can't -  "extra" profits will create additional insentive for competition and lower capital costs - thus making entry into competition even cheaper.
 Corporations do not have to be benevolent to fulfill customers' needs for product and workers' needs for employment. That's teh beauty of a free market system.

 No commitee of people deciding how much people are supposed to work and earn would do any better - theoretical impossibility too complex to explain here.

 How does giving a Captain extra $100,000 make him more qualified/responcible than he was before the raise?
 Usually salary is raised to attract more applicants.  It seems there are plenty of willing applicants already. What, are they not good enough?

 miko

[beet1e]

Miko2d - may I be permitted to offer a crumb of comfort? You have Creamo and AKDejaVu firing salvos across your bows. For my part, I would say that I've read your posts, and your profile, and have found your posts to be well constructed and interesting, as is your profile. I'm afraid that my support comes at a price, and that is that I'm pretty much a pariah on this board, so by being my friend you could become "guilty by association". Hehe - diddly 'em. Creamo flies N1Ks - LOL!  And AKDejaVu is inconsistent: He said that this was amongst the 10 dumbest threads of all time, but he's still here... They're a pair of c***s - two of the overall "bunch" - the official collective noun for their kind.

When I went for a TB9 checkride at Westchester,NY in 1995 (TB10 was in the workshop - Annual Inspection) my instructor was great. He really made me work hard - the best kind of instructor. But he recognised what I could do and how well I could do it, and didn't let me get away with second best - he would make me repeat an exercise if he knew I could do better.  Anyhow, he left Westchester to take a commercial pilot job. His salary: $8000. But worst of all, he had to BUY the job from his new employer - $10,000. I talked to him on the phone after he told me this, and asked him if he was sure he was doing the right thing by entering into a deal like this, but he went ahead anyway.

Seems like the airlines know that there is a steady pool of jet-jockey wannabes such that the airlines don't have to pay for the training of the people they take on. I've seen many go the "commercial route", to be expensively disappointed.

[Dinger]

The Free Market economy is a myth, and has always been so.
If I'm in a position of power in a corporation, if I rely on the forces of the free market, I am going to lose to my competitors.  A successful business doesn't merely cater to a market, it creates the most profitable environment for that market.  That means, among other things, manipulating government to get the most advantageous playing field possible and influencing public opinion (marketing in a very gbroad sense).
If you eliminate a government that's independent of the capitalists, you create a situation where businesses compete with each other to sell their brand of human misery.  Pollution a problem? Nonsense, we at DeathCo international spend millions a year planting trees in the rainforests so the bunnies and hippies can play.
Your wages too low? We'll boost your credit rating. Now go grab some nice toys at 30% interest and book a hotel on fleet street.
If you eliminate marketing, you just killed free speech.
So we've got some government regulation, which of course, is heavily influenced by the corporations is purports to regulate.
Eliminated the competition? Now invest some of that excess capital to convince the government that you're not a harmful monopoly.
Selling defense toys domestically and abroad? Well, nothing like a war to showcase the tachnology and boost sales.
Those guys in prisons aren't doing the goverment any good.  Let's contract the work out to private firms who will charge far above the market value for their service, and exploit the labor of prisoners for such useful activities as telemarketing.
Sorry, the free market as such doesn't exist.  If you want to be successful in business, you create the environment and the demand for your product; you don't find it.
And you don't give a damn about the human condition.  That's for hippies and democrats to worry about, not business.
Anyway, that's how I'd run a business.
And, sorry, that $2.00 apple actually tastes like an apple.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Originally posted by udet
they use te autopilot to make just about every maneuver. it's like programming a computer. I agree sometimes they have to take over and actually land the plane, but it's not hard at all.
I believe anybody with dough and motivation can become an airline pilot ...it takes ABSOLUTELY no special skills, just not to be a blind deaf uncoordinated dimwit.

In a world when you have very little traffic yes. For take off and landing it's all manual, climb/descend/cruise it's generally autopilot off course.
Heck how many of you in AH physically fly the plane to 30k?

There are times you don't mess with autopilot or the programing of the computer. Like if you go around in an IFR approach, don't spend 30 seconds your head down typing stuff, you better off fly the plane. Or if just just have been given a new approach to fly.

As far as the no special skill, that's not really true ... I know a lot of very smart people who cannot keep track of several things in a cockpit in a NORMAL situation... not even talking about toejam starting to get wrong.

Now if you were saying :It takes no extras special skill to a IFR pilot to be an airline pilot" ... I may agree.

The big thing with pilots are all the knowledge they need to acquire EXCEPT flying the plane. All the systems, all the procedures, all the emergencies, all the companies policies, all the paperwork, all the ATC lingo, all the FAA/ICAO regulation, all the weather basics and systems, the navigational methods... and like I already said, 1 mistake with any of those and you may loose your licence, thus your job.... still not talking of how fast u need to get yourself together when an emergency arises.

[AKDejaVu]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm a student... That is my "career" for the moment.

So.. basically you don't do anything.  Ironic.

AKDejaVu

[-tronski-]

I've read that a starting  wage for a pilot @ American Eagle was $16,800. Delta's commuter airlines starting wage: $15,000, Continental Express: $13,000.

I'd be interested to know if thats actually true?  If so....they need a better union!

 Tronsky

[Hortlund]

Airline pilot = free, easy, guaranteed sex.

Seriously folks, I dont think Ive ever met a girl that was not attracted to pilots, be they fighter jocks or airline pilots.  

So stop complaining already. Focus on the important things in life.

[GRUNHERZ]

So why do I hear of all these $150,000 year pilots, on strike?

[moose]

Dago: yeah, at 200 - 250 hours (depending on the type flight school) you can get a commercial job. I'll probably be doing scenic rides and towing banners next summer for minimum wage.

The reason most airlines start at such a low pay is because the pilots need the flight hours to move on to a better job.  You don't get the $$ till you've got the hours, and the type of pilots asking for a hundred fifty grand a year don't just have a couple thousand in the books.

[Thorns]

Toad, don't forget...the last ride you will make, before you die, will be through Atlanta...

Thorns

[Toad]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Toad tell me what operating expenses are not allowed under the DOT rules and possibly where I could look these rules up.

No dodging this time please, just give me the info I asked fof.

Grun, I didn't dodge. I gave you ASM Cost stats from two well-respected industry sites that use DOT stats. You didn't like what they showed, so you went to individual airline annual reports. You feel the annual reports are more accurate. Fine. Too bad the rest of the industry and wall street analysts use DOT data. I'm sure you can help them out.

Do a little research on your own. Go here:

Bureau of Transportation Statistics Airline Information

and use the search function for "Available Seat Mile Cost".

I'm sure it will turn up something for you.

[Toad]

Originally posted by miko2d
The answer is simple - the union will not allow you to have that job even if I am willing to accept less.

Incorrect. The COMPANY can hire you.. they can hire whoever they want. They must pay you the rates agreed upon in negotiation with the pilots representatives after your first year. Pilots at most majors are represented by ALPA but SW and AA have their own unions.

Again: the company and the union mutually agree upon rates in negotiation. It's contractual. The union doesn't set rates unilaterally.

 

Apparently there are plenty of qualified  (ex-army) pilots willing to work for salaries somewhat less than prevalent in the industry - and unable to do so because of unions.

Again incorrect. The company can hire anyone they want and pay whatever they choose in the first "probationary" year. After that, mutually negotiated rates apply to all pilots.

So unions screw up other workers by depriving them of jobs and also customers by making them pay extra.

Two points here:

1. Unions don't deprive anyone of a job. Pilot needs are determined by management. If anything, unions create more jobs because if it were up to management all pilots would fly to FAA mandated maximum hours per month. Negotiated maximum hours are always lower.. and that's a good thing for safety. Those of you who haven't flown a month on the line doing 7 legs a day don't know enough to comment intelligently on that, either.

2. Making customers pay extra? It is to laugh. First of all, savings in crew cost aren't "passed on" to the consumer. SW pays their pilots what Delta does but has lower fares. Jet Blue pays less than SW but has ~ the same fares.  Hmmmm.

Secondly, do you know how much of your ticket goes to crew? A two hour flight on a full B767 has a crew cost of about $4 per seat.. a bit less I think. So, even half full.. which is well below the company average load factor, it'd be $8 of your ticket. Comparison? A "tourist" evening meal.. when we used to serve those... cost the company @ $13.

How would those millions help airlines which are billions in the hole - Toad would have to explain.

Hey, you're the one so concerned about passing on the savings to the consumer.

 

CEO's compensatioin may vary a lot from year to year if the planes fly half full - unlike a unionised pilot who is paid the same for flying an empty plane.

CEO salary rarely varies. Bonus money varies.  Look at Wolf and Gangwal.. they only split $70 million when things were bad and the stock dropped 17%.

Here's an old saw for ya: How much do you tip a taxi driver on a $50 fare? I'll work for that same % as a tip on your fare and take no wages. I'm not worried about the load factor either.

 How many guys would create new airlines, turn profit and increase employment while employee-owned airlines go bust for the salart Toad think "fair"?

The economic landscape is littered with the wreckage of airline companies that think it's that simple. I'd run out of electronic ink listing them all.

 

There are no miracles here. Increasing salary may only be accomplished by restricting access to labor market - increasing income of employed at the expence of having more unemployed.

The labor market is restricted...... by the FAA, not the unions. Take the age 60 rule for example. Medical requirements are another. It isn't the unions.

Further, you assume an infinite capacity in the market place. One of the biggest problems in the industry is overcapacity and it is well documented by the Wall Street airline pundits. Overcapacity is the reason most "startups" don't make it.

 

When things go badly for a company, salaries cannot decrease

Once again, incorrect. Take a look at how many airline workers, union and non-union have taken pay cuts since 9/11. United pilots being a recent example of huge reductions in pay.

[Toad]

Originally posted by miko2d
Forget ex-military. Your company could add flights, hire qualified willing B767 captains laid-off by bancrupt competitors and make money on their flights - if it hired them for wages lower than union-set wages in your company.

Nope. The company itself says we have too many airplanes for the current market and we're parking them in the desert. We can't fill enough seats at any price. Further, allow me to remind you that pilot crew cost is generally less than the price of a hot meal on a flight.

Working for half pay.. IF the company put all the savings into lowering fares...... would drop the ticket price maybe $5.

 The guy who pays for it most is someone who cannot get a job at all because it is not profitable to hire any more people at union wages and not legal to give him a job at lower wages even if he is willing to take it.

Again you assume unlimited demand. It's just not there.. not since 9/11 in the airline industry.

 

Also, unions cannot operate in conditions of free competition - as a non-unionised company would compete their company out of business.

Then where are all the non-union airlines that have started? They're GONE, that's where. No longer in existence. There's a few exceptions but the "disappeared" ones vastly outnumber the few still flying. And of those, only one or two is making money. Don't use SW either.. they're mostly union now. JetBlue is about the only one I can think of and that'll change as they expand. It's easy to make bucks with 20 airplanes by cherry-picking destinations.. when you get big, there's the challenge.

[funkedup]

Originally posted by Dinger
The Free Market economy is a myth, and has always been so.

Plenty of empirical evidence of competitive behavior out there.  Yes, government meddling makes it a bit impure.  On the other hand, the government actively prevents monopolies and other noncompetitive practices.
There are still vast portions of the economy in which real competition demonstrably occurs.
You're a man of letters, do some reading.

[whgates3]

$13 ?!?!?!
ƒµ€kïñg unionized chefs