Author Topic: History channel....correct or wrong again? (Read 1363 times)

F4UDOA · « **Reply #15 on:** December 19, 2002, 03:51:47 PM »

I would luv to see the Jackson and the T-34. Maybe we could get an armour only arena in here??

The US tank I would like to see for the MA is the M18 Hellcat. It had the 76MM that the Sherman did but it could move up to 55MPH. Like an M-8 with a much bigger gun. Would be allot of fun in the MA or "Armour Arena". We need better damage graphic for an all armour arena though ala WW2 online.

Here is some data on the M18

1943 - USA M18 Gun Motor Carriage "Hellcat"
Armament: 1 - 76mm gun
1 - 0.5" MG AA
Engine: Continental, 9 cyl., radial air-
cooled, gas, 340 or 400 hp
Speed; 55 mph
Range; 105 miles
Crew: 5
Weight; 17 tons

Much smaller and lighter than M-10. Over 2,500 built.
Only AFV designed specifically for TD. Excellent
power-to-weight ratio. Fastest production AFV of WWII .
Used "shoot and scoot" tactics. Also used as an assault
gun and Self-Propelled Artillery. Used the same 76mm gun
as the Sherman. Light weight and a 400 hp engine gave it
excellent speed and mobility. One of the best Tank Destroyers
of WWII.

emodin · « **Reply #16 on:** December 19, 2002, 04:19:38 PM »

The Problem with the Hellcat is that it was very lightly armored. And since it was a Tank Destroyer, it had an open top that made it vulnerable to aircraft/infantry/artillery fire.

One thing I have never understood is why the US Army decided to make Shermans as an anti-infantry tank and TDs as the tank killers (or so I read).

As far as tanks being introduced in AH, I'd like to see the T-34 first (preferably the 1943 or '44 85mm one) before the Sherman. And the Panther would be a great low-perk point tank.

Staga · « **Reply #17 on:** December 19, 2002, 04:48:53 PM »

U.S did have at least 10 different rounds to be used against panzers in the 75mm class.
Germans had at least 14 different AP or HEAT rounds in same class.

Germans did also use face-hardened armor plates; when using U.S 75mm/L31 and AP ammo it penetrated 81mm of rolled homogenous armor but only 67mm of FH-armour germans did use from 500meters/0-degr impact.

Source:
World War II Ballistics: Armor and gunnery.

wulfie · « **Reply #18 on:** December 19, 2002, 05:34:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by emodin
One thing I have never understood is why the US Army decided to make Shermans as an anti-infantry tank and TDs as the tank killers (or so I read).

Because U.S. armored warfare *theorists* thought it would work well. They were very wrong, and it cost the U.S. thousands of armored crewmen's lives.

Realizing the error of their ways, they disbanded 'Tank Destroyer Command, U.S. Army' in the late 1940s (after WW2 ended).

Mike/wulfie

wulfie · « **Reply #19 on:** December 19, 2002, 05:37:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by daflea
The US Tank destroyers that landed on D-day were M10 armed with a 3" (76mm), before they landed they were issued a "paper" informing them that their 3" guns could penetrate the front armor plate of a Tiger I at 2,000yds, saddly this gun couldn't punch a hole in the Tiger Is front armor if it was resting on it!

This is not true.

76L51 APBC could penetrate Pz VIE (Tiger I) frontal hull armor ~50% of the time inside of 500 meters.

76L51 APCR had penetration roughly equal to 88L56 APBC out to 500 meters as well, and TDs carried much larger default loads of APCR than MBTs did (in U.S. Army at least).

Mike/wulfie

BenDover · « **Reply #20 on:** December 19, 2002, 06:07:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by whgates3
(note guy furthest to the left in beret - this proves it is france)

he might be british, didn't Monty wear a beret?

hyena426 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 19, 2002, 06:38:29 PM »

a churchhill mkv or higher would be nice,,95mm gun:)

wulfie · « **Reply #22 on:** December 19, 2002, 09:35:44 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by hyena426
a churchhill mkv or higher would be nice,,95mm gun:)

It's a 95mm howitzer. Very low AP capability except for a few HEAT rounds carried by the crew, which are low velocity (i.e. defensive) rounds.

Mike/wulfie

daflea · « **Reply #23 on:** December 20, 2002, 12:26:57 AM »

As for the 3" M10 gun performance theres always this from the
U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in WW II "Events would prove that no tank destroyer could reliably stop a Tiger at any more than fifty yards" "Firing test conducted in Normandy, utilizing Panther hulks were to demonstrate that only the 90mm antiaircraft guns and the 105mm howitzer, firing shape charges, could penetrate the Panther's frontal armor with any regularity"..And as a former tanker with over 20 years of service time, 50 yards from the pointed end of a Tiger or Panther is "resting" the muzzle on the frontal plate!

hyena426 · « **Reply #24 on:** December 20, 2002, 02:11:20 AM »

churchhill could penatrate 120mm at 1000 meters at 1,050 with hecf rounds,,,at 1500 with heat rounds,,could get threw 110mm of hardend armor,,,not too shabby for a big old beast,,about the heaviest tank british had during ww2

wulfie · « **Reply #25 on:** December 20, 2002, 05:56:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by daflea
As for the 3" M10 gun performance theres always this from the
U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, U.S. Army Tank Destroyer Doctrine in WW II "Events would prove that no tank destroyer could reliably stop a Tiger at any more than fifty yards" "Firing test conducted in Normandy, utilizing Panther hulks were to demonstrate that only the 90mm antiaircraft guns and the 105mm howitzer, firing shape charges, could penetrate the Panther's frontal armor with any regularity"..And as a former tanker with over 20 years of service time, 50 yards from the pointed end of a Tiger or Panther is "resting" the muzzle on the frontal plate!

I don't know where this data came from (the data you quoted).

There are numerous easily located copies of armor penetration tests from WW2, conducted by both the Germans and the Americans, that show that the 76mm APBC and APCR rounds fired by the M10 were capable of penetrating the Pz VIEs hull at 500 meters or so.

Pz VIE turret and Pz VG turret could be penetrated ~50% of the time by 76L51 APCR at 500 meters.

The killer was that German TDs and MBTs could effectively engage U.S. TDs and MBTs at over 1000 meters. The reverse is not true (both in terms of gun sight accuracy/quality/ease of use and gun penetration performance vs. armor at ranges of 1000 meters or more).

I'll say it again - the 76L51, firing APBC or APCR - could penetrate the hull of the Pz VIE at 500 meters. By 'could', I mean ~50% of hits resulted in a penetration that had a decent chance of causing catastrophic damage to the Pz VIE.

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/usa_guns5.html

http://gva.freeweb.hu/weapons/german_hull8.html

Mike/wulfie

daflea · « **Reply #26 on:** December 20, 2002, 09:43:59 AM »

I don't know where this data came from (the data you quoted).

If you had been member of the U.S. military or a NATO military and had attended the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, Combat Studies Institute, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas you would be very familiar this data, one of the first things you are given is a paper carton containing 12 pubs, in the military circles these are known as the "Leavenworth Papers".

..By the way the HVAP round (that the one you'er talking about) at the time of the D-day landing were not issued and you can't shoot what you don't have.

Don · « **Reply #27 on:** December 20, 2002, 10:00:41 AM »

An M16 should not be able to kill a Tiger with 2 or 4 50 cal mgs.

whels · « **Reply #28 on:** December 20, 2002, 10:21:59 AM »

we need this US tank, M26, Nov 44.

whels

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #29 on:** December 20, 2002, 10:22:38 AM »

Have to agree with deflea here, everything I read cleary said even the longer 76mm in Shermans and the 3 inch in the M10 could not deal with Tiger I even at ridiculous short range circa D-Day. HVAP of course helped but the tankers had to steal it from the TD crews who also never had enough, and it prolly wasnt available to anyone in time for D-Day..