The moment you realize you bounced a veteran.

[F4UDOA]

Don't usually post annecdotes on flying in AH but here is one from the other night.

In my F4U-1 going to defend a port from a light attack from a nme carrier. See one Jabo F6F tearing up the place and I attack.

We are co-alt he is diving on a target. Probably didn't see me at first but he saw me soon enough. He was firing rockets and I'm gaining rapidly from behind. Already convinced that I had the kill before I fired a shot. I was patient and waiting to get close (The F6F is a good plane in AH but Co-E in my F4U-1 I am very confident). Suddenly my foe on his pullout rolls inverted and dives I follow waiting for the usually death throws before lights out. I'm not sure if he dropped flap or chopped throttle or both but before I realized it the trap was sprung. He was forcing a virtical scissors and I was trapped. Not enough speed to go virtical and to much to continue the scissors without a bad overshoot.

That's the moment I realized it was a veteran stick. toejam! I thought. So rarely do you get engage another veteran Aher that when you do you are surprised.

In any case he snapshoted my aileron when I tried to extend. I got enough distance to extend and reverse and try fight my way out but I was beaten.

In any case that's my story.
Lazerus

[Skuzzy]

Good story too.  Hehe,..dun't ya hate it when that happens?

[-ammo-]

Laz beat you?  You let that old man beat you?  

[Nifty]

hehe, good story.

I personally approach every plane as if it's a good stick.  Never take anything for granted.  

I still lose a lot.  LOL, even to newbies.

[Pongo]

Did you call him a cheater? thats ususally when the rest of us know someone has met a skilled opponent.

[Lazerus1]

I aint that old. Hell, I'm still in my twenty's, but 30 is staring smack dab in the face. Think he's gonna HO me:D

F4UDOA, had a squadie tell me you posted something about me and came here expecting a flamefest for something I couldn't remember doing. Much to my suprise....
It was a fun fight, saw ya comin in from way out and decided to try to finish the city off, had an LVT almost to the shore. Was cussin ya pretty bad you when you started to extend, thought you were going to get away and I saw that chunk fall off your plane.
I'm not sure that I qualify as a 'veteran stick' though, get my bellybutton handed to me in the proverbial lead basket everyday. That ought to make you feel better

[F4UDOA]

Hehe,

No flaming here Lazerus.

I took you for granted and I got clipped bad. It was just that funny "ah toejam" moment that stuck in my head.

I always savor when I get a kill message of someone who's name I recognize as a veteran stick. Somehow snuffing a guy with a handle that pretty much says "kill me" just isn't as satisfying as getting a Citabria, Widewing or Toad.

One time in AW I got Westy in KI-84 in fightertown on a clean bounce. I logged off for a week just to savor my victory.

I hope I'm not the only Senior citizen hunter out their?

[Bonden]

Your probably not

[eagl]

When I get into that situation, I have three choices.

1.  Give him the best no-respect turn you can and take your first available shot even if you KNOW it will result in an overshoot.  An aggressive first move may place your enemy on the defensive, and at that point you're halfway to beating him.

2.  Do everything possible to save your position behind his wingline.  Drop flaps, gear, chop throttle, maneuver aggressively out of plane (in this case a barrel roll may have let you fly a far enough distance to not overshoot).  This will commit you to the fight, but by giving up a shot opportunity you may save enough positional advantage that you can then start working for a good shot.  Unfortunately, if he's good enough, you've comitted to the fight until it's bitter end and he may just kick your butt.  If you have a wingman, this is how the "engaged fighter" and "supporting fighter" tactic works.  You engage and pressure the bandit without letting him immediately kill you, while your wingman takes his time and grabs an easy shot hopefully before the bandit kills you.

FWIW, this is how Drex and I worked the con tournys.  I would pass up easy snapshots and save my positional advantage/neutrality, to ensure that I could support Drex if he got into trouble, and to ensure that I didn't leave Drex all alone against 2 bandits.  It worked pretty well.  I didn't get many kills in the tourny, but I didn't die very often either.  Most of our opponents had nothing in mind but killing either Drex or me, while I just wanted to survive long enough to make sure Drex never had to fight more than one bandit.  It is a conservative tactic that works even better when your opponents are too eager for the kill, and it's why Drex and I flew so well as a team.

3.  WEP and split-S out of the fight.  Lift your skirts and run like a schoolgirl.  Holler for help if you feel really threatened.  Drag him through some ack if you want to buy the grunts beer at the club that night.  Oh yea, the ack is AI...  Anyhow, just run like a sissie and give him the moral victory.  He's put rockets into your O-club and you let him get away with it, and in fact gave him your tacit approval by not even shooting back.  Shame on you

[Blank]

umm, met drex other night, he was in an f6f, I was in a yak, I have diffuculties with f6f as they always seem to be 'cavalear' so I was hesitant and we circled just out of icon range trying to get alt.
Then at 20k  a friendly p-51 tried to engadge him but wound up in trouble, so I pushed the attack even though I didn't want to at 20k as I prefere to keep it low in a Yak,

the to cut a long story short, I never had my arse handed to me so badly, and he quite easily killed the p-51 and left me with a dead engine.
It was fun and I almost made it home but got vulched by a 190 on landing,

and I got a message from drex 'good fight you deserved to live' made me feel better. but I was still pissed at the 190 for stealing drex's hard fought kill.

[VFJACKAL]

Recently I tried my first "Real" perkie ride. I flew and F4U1-C but thats a cheapy. LOL My first real perkie ride was the Spit14 and it was bet kill of the tour.......

I took it up on a Saturday morning to give it a ride to a base we were in control of. (Heaven forbid I take it up to a fair fight;) ). Anyway 2 of my squaddies were in B26's headed to finish off the city. I was already up so I decided to just head on over as they are pretty good in those. Suddenly one of them holler they have a TEMPEST showing some real interest in them. The 26's were rather far apart as they were on there way to a capped base. Im a ways from the pilot that was talking to me and told him.."Ahh what the heak it's only 70 pts if I lose anyway" "And I can't let ya just take him on alone" So I WEP'ed it all the way and the Temp is headed his way. He's there and fires at the 26. I get there...Shoot at him and he pulls off. I figured I'm in the fight now and my Squaddie will get away. Nope...The TEMP turns back to that 26 and just belines right to him with me in chase. I had a SLIGHT e advantage and just busted him with those 20mm Hispanos and BANG he's dead but not before he put that fatal blast of his own 20mm cannons in that 26. My squaddie wasn't upset since I got him. When the kill message showed who I got I was so excited i whoooooped on the radio. If ya suck as bad as me killing someone who you know is a veteran pilot is a joy. It was cool as hell to do that. Later that same morning I scored another kill on a veteran pilot.

I haved tried to bouce Fester , GTR's F4U , and a couple more that quickly filled me full of lead and took my wings and promptly placed them in another place other than my plane. Bouncing vet's takes about 5 secs to figure out....You Say I got there ass...Get ready to shoot...They ZIG..You ZAG...they go there when ya thought it would be here and in all of 30 secs...Its  "You have been killed"    LOL:)

[Moose1]

Last night I was out in a 51D messing around near 38 when Frodo and I ran across a couple of higher P-47s--we were about 18k, they were about 20k.  Well, we'd just owned some higher P-51Ds before, so we went ahead and drove on in.

Big mistake.  One was sancho, I think the other was Lftf00t, Frenchy might've been a third one that showed up at some point but I'm not sure.

It turned into quite a fun game of cat and mouse, the Jugs were teaming beautifully.  Every time one of us would get close to a firing solution on a 47, the other one would come tearing in and run us off.  I eventually got stupid and misjudged Sancho's E state and followed him up in a zoom...I got a few hits in as he flopped over the top at 750 yards, but I got caught vertical at < 100 knots and he did NOT miss on his way back downhill.  It was an awesome fight, though.  It's always neat to watch people who can really maximize the performance of a plane like a Jug.

There's always that one moment during a fight with a real expert, usually early on, when the bandit does some maneuver that makes you realize, "Uh oh, I think I'm in over my head here..."

[F4UDOA]

Eagl,

I didn't quite wuss out as bad as what it might have sounded. Fact is towards the end of typing my story my wife walked in the room and no doubt would have read and belittled me for my childish story telling of a dogfight in cyberspace. So basically I ended my story quickly to avoid being humiliated by my wife, charming woman really.

In anycase I did exactly what you said. As soon as I realized my flaw I was at the top of the virtical scissors so instead of continuing with that futility I split-s I went the other direction and fast. Unfortunately Lazerus had already gained enough maneuvering room to get a decent shot before I could extend causing me to loose an aileron. This negates the one real advantage of the F4U over the F6F (other than speed). I had extended to beyond guns range but I just couldn't resist trying to turn the tables. I'm not even sure what maneuver I attempted at that point but one thing I know is that it got me back in the tower fast. I could have easily run back to base but it is not generally my style to do so unless I am out numbered.

One thing of many I remember from my experiance at Air Combat USA from one instructor pilot who was an ex F-4 and F-15 jock. He said when he trained other pilots to dogfight that the most important thing to remember was never give up. Even when it hurts (And I learned what he meant by hurts) don't give up, continue to fight. I try to do that in AH. At least the G's don't hurt your head so bad.

His name was "Rug" Burns. I can't remember his first name but he was pretty cool. He is an instructor at Fullerton Cal.

[MwXX]

I didnt know Lazerus was a vet stick? I do remember killing him several  times one night...he just kept upping perk plane after perk plane after perk plane......

I think he and i went at it for about an hour.....

"then I just had to know" why all the perk plane suicides?

so I private message Lazerus to find out he had been drinking alot that night, and was out and about having fun!!!!!!!

U know its funny......Ive never even killed the guy before.....or encountered an engagement with him either.....

knowing that I only killed him under the influence....

lets me know that I really SUCK!!!

LOL

Lazerus

[SFRT - Frenchy]

So true .. most of the time I do my "anti dweeb gentle evasive" and the guy is still ... oh uh oh! ... then u pull an another trick and the guy sticks to it ... then you know it's time to get hardcore, if it's not too late:D