Lets see what the stats see end of tour...

[Vulcan]

before we all jump to conclusions.

FWIW, I just did some quick numbers and the N1ki projects to be doing the same as last month (of course post weekend this may change).

The bigger changes are the tiffie, and SUPRISINGLY the 205!!! And yes the chog is projected to do around 25% of last tour.

It will be interesting to see the what the numbers say end of month. Who will be proven right? Who will be proven wrong? May be some of you will eat have to your words? (either side of the great chog-perk debate).

So why not wait before embarassing yourself with premature opinions :-)

Heres another interesting idea - everyone has thrown around the idea that the chog kills will go to the n1ki, spit or whatever. What if the chog kills don't go anywhere? What if those pilots no longer rack up those kills because the tactic (we all know what I'm talking about) so commonly used in the chog is dropped in other aircraft?


[This message has been edited by Vulcan (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Kieran]

My one and only concern is that the crowd will move right on to the next plane to revile/attack. That is already happening to an extent with the Nikki. I am also a little disgusted at the people doing victory jigs, calling anyone who flew the C a skill-less pilot. That is something that makes me want to see every plane in the set perked- then we'd see how much celebration happened.  

Of course you are right, we won't know for sure until it is over.

[Mr. T]

BUT IT'S GREEN!!!! PERK IT!!!!
-SW
(whatever... I'm just having fun at the expense of the anal retentive torch carrying "perk this" crowd)

[Karnak]

Actually, the vast majority of the people I see that are crying for the N1K2 to be perked are the people who were previously demanding the the F4U-1C not be perked.

It will be interesting to see where the numbers land at the end of the tour.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Fatty]

It's a land based map too Vulcan, so any direct comparison would be hard to do unless you take 2 tours ago.

[AKDejaVu]

 

Actually, the vast majority of the people I see that are crying for the N1K2 to be perked are the people who were previously demanding the the F4U-1C not be perked.

Hmmmm.. haven't seen anyone cry for the N1K to be perked that didn't want the F4u-1C perked.

I did see several people point out that the N1K will just replace the CHog as the "dweebmobile" in the arena.  For those that were for the perking of the F4u-1C, that means they want the N1K perked.  For those that were against the perking of the CHog, it means "the snowball has started its journey down the hill".

AKDejaVu

[Karnak]

AKDejaVu,

I'm not saying they are truely serious, but some of them seem to have an attitude like "Fine, if we're going to go down this road, lets perk the N1K2.  The we can perk the Spitfire MkIX.  Then we can perk the La7.  Then...."

I think its primarily a frustration response because they perceive HTC to have caved in to a small group of whiners.  Personally, I think that HTC simply looked at the usage numbers and decided to try something to moderate it and they did this while comfortably ignoring the load mouths on both sides of the issue.

Two notable "Perk the F4U-1C" loud mouths, RAM and myself (I even fly the N1K2 once in awhile), have both stated repeatedly that we do not want the N1K2 perked, just have its FM fixed, refined or what ever you want to call it.

------------------
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[Vulcan]

This is what I mean, actual number of kills-wise the n1ki is on track to do the same as last tour.

 

Originally posted by Kieran:
My one and only concern is that the crowd will move right on to the next plane to revile/attack. That is already happening to an extent with the Nikki.

[AKDejaVu]

The criteria HTC used to perk the F4u-1C will have to be applied across the board.  If another plane (or two) consume 20% of the kills in the arena.. it should be perked.  That is what you are saying believe it or not.

Most people against perking are contesting that there will always be a plane that is widely used in the arena.  Eventually, they will be perking more and more.. limitting more and more.

Its pretty much that simple.

I personally don't care what planes you feel should or should not be perked.  I know that you wanted one to be perked... so you're OK with the idea.  Now, many are willing to identify the next "uber" plane and take it down a notch.  Or is it just a coincidence that uber-N1K threads start popping up?  Or is it a coincidence that every "glad to see the CHog gone" thread contains "just seeing too many CHogs, Spits and N1Ks" in the thread in many different spots?

Dunno.. seems like the witch hunt has to find a new witch to hunt.

AKDejaVu

[R4M]

   

Originally posted by Karnak:
Two notable "Perk the F4U-1C" loud mouths, RAM and myself (I even fly the N1K2 once in awhile), have both stated repeatedly that we do not want the N1K2 perked, just have its FM fixed, refined or what ever you want to call it.

Yep. There is absolutely no need to perk the Nik, nor the spit nor the La7, nor anything else because their usage numbers are perfectly normal.The NiK FM is at suspect by many people in AH, but even as it is now it should NOT get perked.

Most of the "perk the Nik" stupidities we are seeing in this boards are provoked by the people who didnt want the Chog to be perked. And that is because they see that their apocaliptical prediction of an en-masse migration of the Chog pilots to the Nik exclusivelly was WRONG. Now they dont see the sky falling over us, yet they want to make us think it indeed is.

Look the number game played by some people here. They bring the numbers of kills so far and they yell "look we said it!! the Spit and Nik Have twice the kills than the third!! now you will cry for it to get perked!!!". With this:

• 1-They ignore the fact that up to the last TOD both the N1K2 and Spit (usual 2nd and 3rd planes with most kills) ammounted for twice the kills than the P51D (Usual fourth). Now the N1K2 and Spit ammount for more or less twice the kills of the P51D...wow that sounds like FAMILIAR to me.
• 2-IN any case, the N1K2 and Spit are collecting kills at a pace wich will put them WAY -and I mean WAY- under the usage numbers that the Chog had (27717 kills last tour).
• 3-they say what I will do in the future, when they have no idea, and they are plainly wrong. I hate it because I have stated lots of times that "with this trend the N1K2 for sure wont need perking".

When we point them all those arguments, they answer "Oh, well its been only 2 days of tour so we cant extract conclussions"...

to wich I answer:
WHO BROUGHT THE NUMBER ARGUMENTS THE FIRST?!. THe same ones who after being pointed how wrong they are, now they says that it is "too soon". Heh.

And they keep on coming and yelling "WAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAA NOW YOU WILL ASK THE NIK TO GET PERKED WAAAAAAAAAA WAAAAAAAAAAA". And they do it to fake the impresion that indeed we are asking it to be perked. Well, no. I like the Main arena as it is now. True, there are planes more common than others. The chog is still quite an usual view now (and now it uses to give a nice and clever fight instead of the endless HO-turn-HO-turn crap). THe N1K2 and Spits are very common. But at least they are not EVERYWHERE!.

Said that, and rest assured. If the N1K2 gets someday the kill numbers the Chog did last tours I will lobby for it to get perked.

But as it is now it is fine. So stop the "NOW YOU WILL SAY PERK IT WAAAAAAA WAAAAAAA" Crap, because its heading nowhere.

Some people simply can't accept that,them, so experienced and intelligent, after "seeing all of this before" and after "being sure that the crowd would move en masse to the next plane", now they find that the first signs we are seeing point to the very probable chance that they were plainly wrong.


[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-03-2001).]

[Toad]

When you compare numbers, compare fighter v fighter numbers.

I doubt there is anyone around who would suggest that the F4U-1C is not the best "gun only" killer of GV's under present armor modeling.

The N1K1 and the Spit will never approach the -C's efficiency against present GV's and thus will never rack up the addiitional GV kills that the -C did.

If the "new GV armor model" comes out this tour and the result is GV's more impervious to "guns only" air attack, it will skew the numbers even more.

Air to Air fighter kills are what count but with vultches data is skewed there as well. Still, that's the closest you are likely to get to an "apples to apples" comparison.

[R4M]

 

Originally posted by Toad:
When you compare numbers, compare fighter v fighter numbers.
.
.
.
Air to Air fighter kills are what count but with vultches data is skewed there as well. Still, that's the closest you are likely to get to an "apples to apples" comparison

I dont know at tour's end, but for sure the relations would be almost the same. But at 4-22-2001:

Total fighter to fighter Kills in Tour 15:
   

This is collected by AKdejavu, and is fighter to fighter. If you throw the bombers in there the relation will grow towards the Chog because the definitely better range and power of the four hispanos over the Niki cannons.

You should see that the relations are almost the same. Chog roughly doubles the Nik (ok I know that 7500x2 is 15000, but I said "roughly"  ) and Spit kills and those two roughly double the P51D kills.The same pattern followed by the total kill lists.

In between the P51 and the Spit is the La7, but that would be expectable because the Lavochkin's A/G loadout is nil. And in any case it does affect the Chog at all.

Now,according to you, it is apples to apples.

[This message has been edited by R4M (edited 05-03-2001).]

[AKDejaVu]

Final fighter vs fighter kills:

 

AKDejaVu

[Toad]

Yes, those are the only numbers that count as far as I'm concerned. This is, after all, supposed to be mainly an ACM game.  

Some people try to bolster their argument against the -C by adding GV kills to the -C totals but that's a red herring. Of course the -C gets the most GV kills. Duh! It is THE field capture plane and about the only one that can reliably take out a hard GV in one pass.

The fact remains however, that the "it's all I ever see argument" is often made by those who highly desire an A v A arena and thus it is suspect.

Common sense tells you that the "all I ever see" situation will be worse in an A v A. If you fly only one side you've basically eliminated about half the aircraft in the game from your target list. On top of that, your opponents are probably going to fly the best 2-3 aircraft in their inventory. So, mostly you will see the 2-3 best aircraft the other side can field ALL the time.

I'd guess the Allies will see a very large percentage of D9's and G10's. The Axis will see a very large percentage of SpitIX's, La-7's and P-51's.

A Pac A v A would be worse. It'll be Axis N1K1's vs Spit IX's, -51's and maybe some F4U-1D's and F6F's. Depends on what planeset they'd allow.

So, I think there's a more basic reason for the animosity towards the -C and one that will never change. It's also one that -C opponents will never admit.  

[AG Sachsenberg]

All I have to say is wow, I saw a ton of 202's and 205's last night.  But then again I saw a ton of spits, more so then the N1k.  And I saw a lot more <S> last night then I have ever seen in the MA before.  I had a blast last night, but it also turned into the most frustrating night as well lol.  Went into cold streak 3 kills 13 deaths not a good streak there.  <S> to all the pilots I flew against last night, barely any squeaking over there and the ones that were, were joking around.    

------------------
 

Verkaaft's mei Gwand `I foahr in himmel!
Sell my clothes I am going to Heaven!

[This message has been edited by AG Sachsenberg (edited 05-04-2001).]