Author Topic: Shooting  (Read 2600 times)

Offline OnePunch

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« on: December 28, 2002, 12:25:26 AM »
I'm sorry to say but being killed from d-1000 d900 d-800 d-700 d-600 is all but impossible.
Think about it folks were talking 10 football fields in lenght here.
Or 9, 8, 7, 6 football fields in length.
Flame me all you want but its the truth.
Historical from HTC i seriously doubt it.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2002, 12:52:51 AM »
Longest WWII Hispano kill I am aware of was about 900 yards.

Personally, I think its the range counters that cause the difference.  I know I am nothing like alone in this opinion.
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Offline jbroey3

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« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2002, 12:59:23 AM »
Bring Il2's gunnery/damage model to aces high.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2002, 01:04:49 AM »
Il-2s gunnery model is worse than AH's.
Petals floating by,
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Offline Tumor

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« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2002, 07:02:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Il-2s gunnery model is worse than AH's.


Why?  I have no clue which one is more accurate (or realistic may be a better term), but IL-2's gunnery model makes most shots in AH qualify as spray'n pray.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Vulcan

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Re: Shooting
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2002, 07:13:24 AM »
First of all don't forget to take the 200-300 difference of for lag. Especially if you are pulling away from a con.

Technically speaking it is quite possible to kill from those ranges. The contributing factors in WW2 preventing this from being common were: ammo; visibility; a stable gun platform (turbulence). In AH we have no concerns about unloading all our ammo (well some don't); clear visibility (no oiled up screen, fog, or smoke); and the platform is dead stable.

Apart from that the ballastics are there, the spread is there. The guns are right.

The only way to fix it is either to induce some artificial buffeting (seen in IL2), wind the lethality back and remodel the ballastics to drop more than they really do (also seen in IL2); have players voluntarily spray CRC on their monitors.

What would be really good, imho, is a buffet feature in someone elses slipstream. IE, if you're chasing a con then your experience a small amount of buffet up to d2 behind. Dunno how hard it would be to implement tho.


Quote
Originally posted by OnePunch
I'm sorry to say but being killed from d-1000 d900 d-800 d-700 d-600 is all but impossible.
Think about it folks were talking 10 football fields in lenght here.
Or 9, 8, 7, 6 football fields in length.
Flame me all you want but its the truth.
Historical from HTC i seriously doubt it.

Offline Toad

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Re: Re: Shooting
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2002, 07:27:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vulcan
IE, if you're chasing a con then your experience a small amount of buffet up to d2 behind. Dunno how hard it would be to implement tho.


If you actually were in the somewhat narrow band of disturbed air directly behind another aircraft, buffet would increase the closer you got. It wouldn't stop at 200. The heavier the aircraft being followed, the more the buffet.

Perhaps just model the bullets for only 50 feet? At 51 feet the bullets would just disappear into another alternate universe that was exactly the same, only totally different.

Then you'd really have to "get close and then get closer".


How about this for a new slogan?

Send all the unhappy people to IL2!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2002, 09:16:08 AM »
ballistics and spread are right in AH.   The real factor is the amount of time a lot of us have with guns and the fact that we are sitting in an easy chair with no distractions.

We can duplicate the poor marksmanship of the average pilot in WWII... but why?  AH would have to add some artifical factor like Il2 does in order to do it.  
lazs

Offline Gman

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« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2002, 10:01:31 AM »
Well, I'm no expert in ballistics/energy in regards to WW2 weapons, but I do resemble one for rifle calibers.

Let's take a garden variety .300 win mag round.  At 1000 meters, it still has well over 870 foot pounds of energy.  That is a hell of a lot more than even a .44 magnum has at point blank range.

Now, take the .50 cal 750 grain Amax round that I shoot.  It has nearly triple the energy of a .300 win mag at 1000 meters.  Make no mistake, kiling APC's at this range is usually a one or two shot deal so long as shot placement is correct.  And that is what this argument bakes down to IMO - shot placement.

In air to air combat, even while in level flight, there are SO many more variables when it comes to hitting the targets, I'm sure this isn't anything everyone here doesn't already know and accept.

However unlikely hitting another fighter at 1000 meters may or may not be, be certain that if a .50, much less a 20 mm explosive round hits said fighter, it will still have more than enough energy to do catostrophic damage, so long as it strikes the right place (fluke).

So, the original posts statement that killing a fighter in AH at long range is unrealistic because of the distance/power issue isn't very accurate, that said, I've never tried shooting from my 172, but I imagine it would be like anything else:  difficult at first, much easier with experience when it comes to actually striking long range targets.

We have a Hispano 20mm in our shop, it came out of a Hurricane 2c at the local air museum.  I should round up some 20mm ammo and take it to the range and shoot some tracer at an old car at 1200 meters or so.  Video tape of that would prove the case one way or the other, at least in regards to inflictable damage at that range.

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2002, 10:05:50 AM »
You think onepunch is a newbie? How long have you been here?


Onepunch I here ya man but dont go banging your head against that wall. Just fly like the guy behind ya is armed with missiles and assume you arent safe until d2k or you are aft you of his 3 / 9 line. :)

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2002, 10:19:24 AM »
I didn't think any LW pilots felt safe at less than 2k or so unless they thought they were sneaking up on the guy.
lazs

Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2002, 10:23:53 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gman
We have a Hispano 20mm in our shop, it came out of a Hurricane 2c at the local air museum.  I should round up some 20mm ammo and take it to the range and shoot some tracer at an old car at 1200 meters or so.  Video tape of that would prove the case one way or the other, at least in regards to inflictable damage at that range.


Take some .50 ball/tracer as well. I'll cheerfully contribute some USD to the project if I get a copy of the video!  Thx!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Gman

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« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2002, 10:46:05 AM »
Hell, I ALWAYS take .50 :).  I shoot at least a couple hundred rounds of .50 a month, more if I can get a hold of some cheap ball.  Even ball will absolutley mow a 60's era car at 1000 meters.  Hate to see what it'd do to a wood/alluminum plane.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2002, 10:48:35 AM »
You know it and I know it. But I think there's a few here that have no idea about the retained energy of a .50 at 1000 meters plus.

:D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2002, 11:05:24 AM »
You guys arent seriously trying to justify AH long range shooting by saying its possible to do so with a gun fixed on a solid shooting bench and firing at a fixed target on the ground. Lets curtail the fanaticism here, ok?

As for IL2 I do think it's "too hard" certainly much harder than AH, but can any of you prove it's not realitic, or is it jush how you "feel". Lets see some data otherwise you are just whiners.

And Toad remember what I said about all those AH cheerleaders whining about IL2...  Pretty good so far..

Cmon I see some of you are AH whine police squeakes, how bout you all produce some numbers, or are you all just going on feel or comparing it to another sim...

Otherwise shut up and play, or go away you little whining squeakes...