Author Topic: Hey Beetle  (Read 1323 times)

Offline Gman

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Hey Beetle
« on: December 29, 2002, 12:44:02 PM »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2609427.stm


A firearms amnesty is being planned for early in the New Year to try to reduce levels of gun crime.
Tougher new laws and a national database of guns will also be introduced in a bid to reduce levels of gun-related crime.

Figures due out next month are expected to reveal that record numbers of offences are being committed using guns.

Police forces want to launch a three-month amnesty early in 2003, similar to those which followed the Dunblane tragedy and Hungerford shooting.

National database

Many of the crimes committed involve replica guns which have been converted and which are used to settle disputes between rival drug dealers.

A ban on ownership of handguns was introduced in 1997 as a result of the Dunblane massacre, when Thomas Hamilton opened fire at a primary school leaving 16 children and their teacher dead.

But even since the ban, gun-related crimes have soured, with one study suggesting handgun usage had gone up by as much as 40% two years after the ban.

So serious is the situation in many of Britain's cities that chief constables want a three month amnesty early next year similar to those which followed the Hungerford shootings in 1987 and the Dunblane massacre.

After Dunblane more than 60,000 weapons were handed in.

The Home Office is considering a minimum five year sentence for anyone caught possessing a gun and setting up a national database and a new agency to trace illegally held weapons.

Offline Toad

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2002, 01:19:03 PM »
What, you trust the BBC as a news source? C'mon now.

I do like the part where just having a 5 year sentence simply for gun possession though. Shows a lot of judgement and common sense. :D

In Jolly Olde how long do you get for burglarizing a house? Or a rape? Or sticking someone with a sharp instrument?

After they pass this, I  bet you'd do more time for having a firearm than for sticking someone in the guts with your souvenir kukri.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Innominate

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2002, 01:31:31 PM »
People with illegal firearms are commiting crimes with them.  Why does anyone think they're going to care about them being made more illegal?

The only people who pay attention to gun laws are those who don't plan on commiting crimes with them.

Offline Nashwan

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2002, 03:08:14 PM »
Strangely, the number of offences under the firearms act (ie posession of a REAL firearm) has fallen by 9% over the past year.

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Nationwide about 80% of armed incidents the police are called to involved fake weapons

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2293663.stm


Perhaps that's the reason?

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Many of the crimes committed involve replica guns which have been converted and which are used to settle disputes between rival drug dealers.


From the same page Gman posted.

Gun control in Britain has affected the supply of guns. Criminals who want them are forced to modify replicas, which are often more dangerous to the user than his victim. Perhaps that's why they don't actually shoot many people?

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In Jolly Olde how long do you get for burglarizing a house? Or a rape? Or sticking someone with a sharp instrument?

For burglary, not long, if any time at all. For rape, about 4 years served, with a typical sentence of about 7 years. Don't have a clue for stabbing, as it's not a seperate offence. It can come under ABH, GBN, attempted murder, etc. If you stab and kill someone, it's automatic life, elligible for parole in around 10 years or so, depending on circumstances.

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People with illegal firearms are commiting crimes with them. Why does anyone think they're going to care about them being made more illegal?


Esactly. Passing tougher laws to punish criminals, who are usually facing years inside for the crime they are using the firearm for, isn't going to stop them. Passing laws that affect the supply, making it more dificult for the criminal to get a gun, will.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2002, 03:56:31 PM »
You mean the criminals will stop using guns to terrorize innocent people because it's now gonna be seriously against the law to have handguns, as opposed to just slighly illegal... :rolleyes:

Offline Nashwan

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2002, 03:59:20 PM »
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You mean the criminals will stop using guns to terrorize innocent people because it's now gonna be seriously against the law to have handguns, as opposed to just slighly illegal...

No, it's always been against the law. They will stop using them because it's harder to get hold of them

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2002, 04:23:33 PM »
"But even since the ban, gun-related crimes have soured, with one study suggesting handgun usage had gone up by as much as 40% two years after the ban. "

Yep they just cant get their hands on them. I mean its against the law to have them so not even criminals can acquire them..

Offline Nashwan

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2002, 05:43:40 PM »
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Many of the crimes committed involve replica guns which have been converted and which are used to settle disputes between rival drug dealers

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Nationwide about 80% of armed incidents the police are called to involved fake weapons


A "handgun" in Britain is anything that looks like a handgun, or is claimed to be a handgun.

A man was sentenced for an "armed robbery" where he used a banana.

Actual firearms act offences (ie posession of an illegal firearm) are down 9%.

Offline Toad

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2002, 05:53:46 PM »
Funny they'd even bother with the new restrictions since it's all "no problemo".

Wonder what the stats will show in the next 1-2-3 years.

I suspect just about all the industrialized countries will show an uptick and I think it's probably related to the economy.

We'll see though. We can argue about more stats.. oh, goody!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline lazs2

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2002, 08:41:49 AM »
I think the real point here is that it's not the ban that works but the penalty.   If you had a life in prison sentance for commiting a crime with a firearm or stealing one... you could allow firearms to be sold at the grocery store and when your home was burglarized.... everything would be gone except your firearms.   The really stupid and dangerous criminals would of course still use guns but then that would be an excellent excuse to take em out of circulation...  forever.

LOL.... the gun ban didn't work so they are imposing a mandatory sentance of 5 years in prison for anyone... even someone who would otherwise spend his entire life crime free... In essence... they are creating criminals.   Like they didn't have enough allready.

LOL... if you can't play nicely with your toys then we will have to take em away from you..   Aren't you just a little embarassed?  Or are you beyond that?
lazs

Offline Wlfgng

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2002, 09:29:51 AM »
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They will stop using them because it's harder to get hold of them

you must be kidding right?

Offline Toad

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2002, 09:43:58 AM »
Wlfgng, they actually believe stuff like that. Judging from another thread, they even believe their politicians will use their tax money in exactly the way they promised during the campaign.

It's a mystery.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline hawk220

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2002, 09:44:58 AM »
laz, i dont normally agree with you, but that was very well put

Offline Nashwan

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2002, 11:03:25 AM »
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I think the real point here is that it's not the ban that works but the penalty. If you had a life in prison sentance for commiting a crime with a firearm or stealing one... you could allow firearms to be sold at the grocery store and when your home was burglarized.... everything would be gone except your firearms.

Here's a radical idea. Make it illegal to murder people. Then you can still play with your guns, and criminals will be too frightened to kill people, because they'll go to prison. Can't believe it's never been tried before.

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LOL.... the gun ban didn't work so they are imposing a mandatory sentance of 5 years in prison for anyone... even someone who would otherwise spend his entire life crime free... In essence... they are creating criminals. Like they didn't have enough allready.

Gun control in Britain has worked. We have more crime than you, because our politicians won't put enough effort in to fighting crime, but we have much lower murder rates, and much lower gun crime.

The crime epidemic in Britain consists of burglary, mugging and car crime. To tackle it, they should send burgulars muggers and car thieves to prison. They don't because there are lots of them, and it costs too much to send them to prison.

Rather than admit they aren't prepared o take the necessary measures against crime, they come up with ever stiffer sentences for more serious crime, because they know there are very few such crimes, and they don't have to build extra prisons to hold the criminals who get longer sentences.

In other words, they get to look tough on crime, whilst not actually doing anything.

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you must be kidding right?

Ask yourself why there are stories about all the illegal guns in Britain, but almost nobody gets shot, very few guns are recovered, and the police say 80% of "guns" are fake, and drug dealers run around with air pistols converted to fire 22 rimfire.

Sounds like the laws have restricted supply pretty well.

Offline beet1e

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Hey Beetle
« Reply #14 on: July 19, 2003, 04:39:04 AM »
Gman - finally getting back to you, 7 months later - LOL.

The amnesty went ahead, and 17,000 guns were netted, along with 403,000 rounds of ammunition.

Different governments view gun ownership in different ways. Americans are free to own guns, and many do so responsibly - but many are used in gangland and mafia hits. Some people argue that guns prevent many crimes from happening, but the fact that a gun is needed to prevent a crime suggests that guns are being used to commit crimes. Some Americans argue for arming everyone as a deterrent against burglaries etc., and that might work up to a point.

But the British government's stance is based on the following facts:
  • For a shooting to take place, a gun has to be present.
  • The more guns present in a society, the more people are going to be killed by guns.
The second fact is borne out by the stats. Thousands in America killed each year by handguns alone, compared to fewer than 100 each year in Britain - the actual tally is usually around 60.

Some might say that it's not the guns' fault that so many people are killed - guns don't kill people, only people kill people - and all that crap. They might then seek to shift the blame for the stats away from the guns themselves, and on to certain ethnic and socio-economic groups (read poor black ghettos where gangs and drugs are rife). Thing is, we too have poor black ghettos where gangs and drugs are rife - but we don't have thousands of gun murders each year. No guns = no shootings. Of course there are some guns, which is why we have some shootings...

...but we do not have the bloodbath that America has, with 300,000 people killed by firearms in the last 25 years. We WOULD have something like that if we had a free-for-all policy on guns. OK, so many of those shootings would be between rival gangs. The fact is that we've already got more than enough crime. The British public does not want to read about gun murders by the thousands year after year. 60 each year is bad enough.