Author Topic: Moslem justice  (Read 1545 times)

Offline Hortlund

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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2003, 01:05:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mrfish
no "some" try to call a duck a duck and not a chicken.

how is this a moslem crime? egyptians are moslems would they have handled this the same way? how about european moslems? this is a jordanian crime at best- not sure how you can take this incident and apply it to the entire moslem world which runs the entire spectrum from rabid to docile.
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It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".

So to answer your question, the Egyptian courts would probably not handle the situation in the same way, but that is only because Egypt is trying to be more west-oriented, and therefore do not practice the Sharia, the moslem law to the letter.

Offline SaburoS

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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2003, 02:09:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hortlund

It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".
 [/B]


Please show us where in the Koran of that passage.

This link:
http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm

Quote
It must also be noted that certain social practices in some Muslim countries are not required by Islam, but have simply evolved in the course of time as a result of indigenous cultural factors.


Gee, there's that word culture again.
Men fear thought as they fear nothing else on earth -- more than ruin -- more even than death.... Thought is subversive and revolutionary, destructive and terrible, thought is merciless to privilege, established institutions, and comfortable habit. ... Bertrand Russell

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2003, 02:40:52 PM »
.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2003, 02:44:16 PM by GRUNHERZ »

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #48 on: January 02, 2003, 06:09:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SaburoS
Please show us where in the Koran of that passage.

This link:
http://www2.ari.net/gckl/islam/law.htm

 quote:
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It must also be noted that certain social practices in some Muslim countries are not required by Islam, but have simply evolved in the course of time as a result of indigenous cultural factors.
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Taken from your link:

"Muslim scholars do not consider Islam to be an evolving religion, but rather a religion and legal system which applies to all times."
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Airhead

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« Reply #49 on: January 02, 2003, 06:20:20 PM »
The girl was a slut and caused her father great shame. We in Western civilization have lost our family pride and values and could never get away with this. How sad. :confused:

Offline -tronski-

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« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2003, 01:06:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
Bad example. The US has a Status Of Forces Agreeement (SOFA) with South Korea that allow the US to decide who tries it's soldiers. Are you implying that the US won't try them fairly? If so, what's your evidence?


Not at all, I know that they have been charged under US military law.
My point was inequal legal systems.

To South Koreans there is no justice, because they have no legal basis to try these two in a Korean court, despite the crime happening in Sth Kor, resulting in the death of 2 Sth Korean citizens.
Off the top of my head this was the same situation in Italy with the A-6 knocking down a cable car.

 Tronsky
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Offline Dowding (Work)

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« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2003, 02:11:23 AM »
Quote
It is a moslem crime because the Koran states both the crime and the punishment. That is why it is a moslem crime and not a Jordan crime. Believe it or not, there is no law in the Jordan penal code that says "girls talking back to their fathers shall be killed".

So to answer your question, the Egyptian courts would probably not handle the situation in the same way, but that is only because Egypt is trying to be more west-oriented, and therefore do not practice the Sharia, the moslem law to the letter.


Did you read my earlier reply? I don't know where you get your information from, but I think you'll find that Jordan is one of the most secular Islamic states in the Middle East. It certainly doesn't bow to the strict Shariah law practised in Saudi Arabia, for example.

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2003, 06:17:14 AM »
There is this cultural problem of honorary killings.

in Sweden there have been a number of well published cases - one invilvong a woman who were quite famous (dunno if she wrote articles or not). She even had police protection for a while, but ended up being killed by her family because of honour.

Without attaching this to any particular religion, one has to concede that this behaviour is spawned largely by two factors; religion and the culture (which of course is heavily affected by religion).

And, as Hortlund points out, this behaviour is spreading to our countries. We're unable to defend ourselves since we cannot legally own handguns and police cannot defend us because they cannot keep a 24h a day watch.

So what we're seeing is an integration of immigrants. That is a huge problem in the Scandinavian countries and the blame is not solely on politicians - many immigrants do not wish to be integrated and hold dearly on to their own cultural values. This is not a problem as long as they're not breaking the law.

Unfortunately, Islam as it is practised in various Islamic states in the world today is quite misogynic and often treats women like property. When a young woman tries to fit into her new adopted country her family will react - sometimes with lethal consequences. The *justification* for such acts is often found in religious texts.

It's worth noting that Christianity had the reformation which by large modernized Christianity. For Islam there hasn't been such a process yet. As it is practised today, there are more 'problems' seen from a Western perspective in Islam (problems meaning problems with our ideals of democracy, freedom, equality etc) than there is with Christianity. The latter has more or less adjusted to the democratic values, whereas the former has been more sluggish to do the same.

Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2003, 08:28:45 AM »
Quote:
"It's worth noting that Christianity had the reformation which by large modernized Christianity. For Islam there hasn't been such a process yet. As it is practised today, there are more 'problems' seen from a Western perspective in Islam (problems meaning problems with our ideals of democracy, freedom, equality etc) than there is with Christianity. The latter has more or less adjusted to the democratic values, whereas the former has been more sluggish to do the same. - St. Santa"
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I think there are real fundemental differences between Islam and Christianity.


Miko said:
Quote
As a leader of a band and then an army he (Mohammed - founder of Islam) murdered quite a lot of people. Probably a few personally but certainly thousands on his immediate orders and direction. He started with intercepting the merchant caravans from Mecca, remember? Then he captured it and other cities. Sacking a city in medieval times was quite a violent affair. - Miko


Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.

I'm not saying one religeon is more valid than the other, but its a bit misleading to imply that Islam simply hasn't evolved as far as Christianity. There are REAL differences in philosophy, as evidenced by the number of Islamic terrorists compared to Christian terrorists.... just my .02.
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline Staga

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« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2003, 08:45:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Only 10 years for murder in Sweden?


If you're cop and in duty... nope.
Osmo Vallo

http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~socs132/swe000530.html
« Last Edit: January 03, 2003, 08:51:03 AM by Staga »

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2003, 08:55:46 AM »
Gunthr, aye there are differences, also in philosophy. Then again, Hinduism is more different from Christianity than Islam is.

But yeah, there are 'operational differences'.

Offline mrfish

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« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2003, 12:28:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gunthr
Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.


but not far at all from the adventures of the old testament.

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2003, 01:14:46 PM »
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Originally posted by -tronski-
To South Koreans there is no justice, because they have no legal basis to try these two in a Korean court, despite the crime happening in Sth Kor, resulting in the death of 2 Sth Korean citizens.  


While there may be some that feel there is no justice that isn't the position of the South Korean government nor of all South Koreans.

As I'm sure that you're aware, the US has had a significant military presence in South Korea for over 50 years. This isn't the first incident like this. Those that want us out of there will blow anything out of proportion to try to get what they want. I bet they are a bit more subdued now though with North Korea making war noises.
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Offline Gunthr

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« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2003, 02:07:07 PM »
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Gunthr
Assuming Mohammed did the things described above, it is a stark contrast with the actions and root philosophy of Jesus Christ.
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Mrfish said:
"but not far at all from the adventures of the old testament.

That is semantics. Why compare the Koran with only a part of the Bible?

Does this mean that you agree with me that there was indeed a stark difference  between these two historical figures... that one did engage in violence, and one did not?
"When I speak I put on a mask. When I act, I am forced to take it off."  - Helvetius 18th Century

Offline ra

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« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2003, 02:13:33 PM »
Quote
Does this mean that you agree with me that there was indeed a stark difference between these two historical figures... that one did engage in violence, and one did not?

Equally important is the fact that Christianity has the 'render unto Caesar' doctrine, which allows Christians to live under non-Christian governments.  Islam has no such doctrine, and the political climate of any country with large a Moslem population reflects this.

ra