Author Topic: so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?  (Read 339 times)

Offline StSanta

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2000, 10:08:00 AM »
80 yards is pretty damned good.

I've heard that during the Lancaster bombings of German facilities and cities, a hit within 300 meters of a target was considered a "hit".

300 meters is somewhat longer than 80 yards  

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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline Rifle

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2000, 10:31:00 AM »
Allied bombing was never considered "precision" - even by their own surveys.

Even with the advent of radar-guided bombing (H2S and H2X), the minimum error on these systems was a 1 mile CEP.

Even the much vaunted Norden did not properly  account for both a/c drift or winds.

Face it, at best any of the high altitude (more than 10k ft) bombing done by the Allies was area 'terror' bombing.

Cheers,
    Rifle

Offline Replicant

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2000, 12:59:00 PM »
Yep, 80 yards is very good but many other things will always change the accuracy - wind, cloud, bomb aimer error, and the most significant one for Lancasters was obviously low light!    

Regards

'Nexx'

[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 09-10-2000).]
NEXX

Offline juzz

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2000, 06:04:00 PM »
H2S/H2X was a navigation aid, it didn't help them to aim bombs. Didn't help them navigate much either, actually.  

Offline Rifle

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2000, 08:16:00 AM »
Juzz - go read "The invention that changed the world" by Robert Buderi.

They used it as a bombing aid.

BTW H2S = 'S' Band(10 cm) and H2X = 'X' Band (3-cm)

Cheers,
     Rifle

Offline bloom25

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2000, 09:29:00 PM »
Yeah, I had the pleasure of chasing a pair of 36k Lancs over our HQ last night myself.  The worst part was that they were flown by members of a well-known Bish squad that I had some respect for as being above such behavior.  I guess I know better now.    Not only that, but even after I disabled one of the bombers the other was able to knock out our HQ.

All my sources cite the Lancs ceiling at around 20 - 24k.  ROC seems off as well.



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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

Offline StSanta

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2000, 11:43:00 PM »
Well,, I ran into one person, and after he was informed that Lancs dinnae fly that high, he said he wouldn't take it so high again.

Thanks SOB, class act there <S!>  



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StSanta
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"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime

Offline Mark Luper

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2000, 06:09:00 AM »
I find it interesting that an individual who decides he is going to make his Lanc easy prey for fighters is called a "class act" and those that use about the only real form of defence the lanc has, altitude, as "gaming the game".

I won't fly at 40k in one but I will take it to 35k so that I do have a chance to get to the target and back. The last time I did I had two fighters come up and shoot me. One was a 109 the other a p-47.

Now to those of you that contend that the Lanc could never acheive those heights and therefore it is not historical to do so consider this also if you will: how historical was it for a P-47 to climb, pursue and shoot at a Lanc? For that matter, how historical is it to have opposing forces flying the same plane?

This is a simulation of ACM. I like to see some historical precedence in it too, but if the Lanc is not given the opportunity to defend itself in about the only way it can why bother even flying it?

Most bomber sorties in the main arena are solo events. There are the few times one gets to fly in a formation with others and that would preclude to a certain extent the necessity to fly so high. They can afford each other some protection. Also if the bombers in question can get an escort then flying low at realistic flight levels becomes something that can actually add more fun to the sortie. The lanc, even in formation is still very vulnerable to low attacks. It would require dedicated and experienced players to really make a go of it.

As long as a fighter can still get to me I feel he has an equal chance. Does it make it difficult to climb that high? Sure it does. When I fly a fighter I make it as difficult as I can for the other guy to shoot me down, so why does it become "gaming the game" when I do the same in a Lanc?

If I suspect someone is heading towards my HQ I don't wait till the last minute to try to climb up to him. If people will heed the warnings given by others or keep one eye on the radar we have, they can generaly get to alt in time to do something about it.

Of course this is my opinion. Everyone is entitled to one and as posted in this thread most don't seem to agree with mine. This will always be a debate and I can't see it ever satisfying both the fighter jocks or the buffers anywhere in the near future.



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MarkAT

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it is the man in the arena..."
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MarkAT

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Offline Fury

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2000, 08:10:00 AM »
I don't see this as being a "fighter" vs. "buffer" debate.  It's more of "how do you fly your buff".

When flying a lone buff, I know my chances of survival are pretty low.  I choose to fly with a buff formation, or with escorts, in order to increase my chances of returning; rather than take advantage of a possible bug to increase my chances.  I am a buffer more than a fighter; and my personal choice is not to take any buff over 24k.

My choice is not necessarily because it's not "historical" because I am not a historian and really have no idea how these planes performed in real life.

What's the fun and skill in flying over everyone else, where they can't catch you?  I don't find that fun.  I find it much more enjoyable to engage fighters during my run, regardless of the results, than to fly 10k over them, knowing they have no chance of catching me.

HTC has some lanc fix today, hopefully this will all bee moot by tomorrow morning.

Fury

Offline -lynx-

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so wtf is our Lancaster FM same as B17?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2000, 08:50:00 AM »
MarkAT - that's the whole point of this discussion you're missing - Lancs didn't have the altitude as their defence. Thinking about it - they din't have much of anything as their defence - that's why they were flying nights.

And from AH point of view it is very historical for P47 to do all things you list for a very simple reason - it could do all that!

Lanc could not get to 30K+ hence flying it there is "gaming the game". It is a simulation of ACM - you said it yourself. Lanc could not M(anoeuvre) at altidutes it's flying now, it's a bug, it will be fixed, hence "gaming..."



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lynx
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