Author Topic: UK gun laws a failure  (Read 1237 times)

Offline NUKE

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2003, 12:00:42 PM »
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In Britain we've never had more than 100 gun murders in any year


Then why ban guns after one nut killed a a few people in a school in 1996?

The Gun ban will not change your murder rate regardless, and it appears that it will not change your gun murder rate either.

Offline NUKE

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2003, 12:05:43 PM »
....oh, and this clueless post from BBC thread


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These deaths were apparently caused by rival gangs who thought they had to be armed for their own defence. This illustrates perfectly why ordinary citizens should NOT be armed.
Julie, UK



............. um, yeah...I see her point

Offline Nashwan

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2003, 02:42:28 PM »
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nash... I believe that if you take out the black on black murder in the U.S. that the overall murder rate is about the same, per capita, in the U.S. as in limeyland..

while the U.S. (excepting black on black) has about the same per capita murder rate as limeyland


The figures say otherwise. White Americans kill each other about 3 times as often as ALL groups in Britain do.

Offline ra

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2003, 03:17:10 PM »
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Murder is still murder, whether there's a law against it or not.

Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, so if there is no law against it, there is no murder.  

I don't blame you for bailing out, though.

ra

Offline Toad

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2003, 05:10:46 PM »
Their bans and prohibitions and licensing and "gun clubbing" and safes and locks and laws haven't affected their criminal element to any significant degree. It shows in their stats now and I'll wager it'll show even more so in their stats 5 years down the road.

What has worked... wherever it's been tried... is more effective punishment of those who use firearms incorrectly/illegally.

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KC Star:

Homicides in Kansas City last year dropped to their lowest level since 1972, and officials attributed the decline to police programs that improve community relations and going after violent offenders.



That's just one example.

Cane killed Abel with a rock.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2003, 10:38:49 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -duma-

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2003, 05:34:10 PM »
Interesting perspectives. One thing I've noted is that whenever we get some sociopath holed up in a police siege he seems to be waving around a blank firer or replica.. wouldn't be too keen on him getting his hands on a real firearm! (Plenty of them still do through illegal channels, of course.)

I'm studying in Nottingham and that I know of the city's seen two gun-related murders within the last three months; as I recall one was drugs-related and the other one involved the killing of a witness in a murder trial, five minutes walk from my flats. None of them were that worrying really, in that the target was predetermined.

(I love airsoft [wargaming with low-powered airguns, similar to paintballing] skirmishing, and own airsoft replicas of the Steyr TMP and Beretta 84 [though I keep and use these back home in Wales, not at Nottingham], but am not especially keen on the idea of real firearms. Pity about the damage to sporting competitions though)

Arming civilians might serve as a deterrant to criminals, but I believe it'd have a negative social effect in the UK - having your neighbours armed doesn't make them more approachable, put it that way. As such I'd treat it as a last resort only, and don't think it's at all likely in any case. I think for a party to even suggest it would be political suicide.

CCTV in city areas and housing is on the rise in the UK, and it'll be interesting to see what effects they have on crime. Personally I wouldn't be opposed to bringing back the death penalty for homicidal crimes due to the precision of current day technology.

Offline Yeager

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2003, 09:19:19 PM »
An armed british populace is not warranted.  They are stuck on a island for gods sake!  There is no crime on islands, everyone knows that!
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline lazs2

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2003, 10:02:47 AM »
yep... ya gotta be pretty dumb to commit murder (or any crime that get's a lot of attention) on some tiny little island..

nashwan... are you sure?   It seems that if between 40% and half of all murders are committed by non whites in America and you count Scotland (probly not for much longer tho) and Whales in the limey homicide figures then ther isn't much difference.  And this on a tiny little island with no chance of escape and a population that is cowed by it's government.
lazs

Offline Nashwan

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2003, 04:18:17 PM »
Yes Lazs I am sure. The FBI says so.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2003, 08:20:35 AM »
Ok nash... what is the homicide rate for whites in America and the overall homicide rate for all of limeyland including Scotland and Whales?   Seems I heard that Scotland was about twice Americas..  How bout Ireland?
lazs

Offline StSanta

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2003, 11:25:08 AM »
Quick internet search: Scotland highest in UK at 28 per million
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/664845.stm

USA lowest in last 30 years at 60 per million (1999)
http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1999/10/18/p20s1.htm

Offline lazs2

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2003, 02:40:37 PM »
yes santa but.... we are factoring out the black on black homicides that is over 40% in the U.S.   that makes it about even but.... with The whites in the U.S. free to defend themselves and.... prevent 1-3 millon crimes a year using their firearms.   Seems the limeys are getting screwed by the "home office".   As the drug wars and immigration for limeyland increase so will the homicide rate.   They are allways 10-20 years behind us.
lazs

Offline Midnight

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2003, 04:10:24 PM »
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Originally posted by StSanta
I have a quicke question to Americans. Please be honest in answering it.

Even emotionally unstable morons have a right to own a gun. Assume you have one of these as a neighbor, and there's a dispute. Would you not be worried that this guy would be so upset he'd get his gun and a shootout would result? Had he not had a gun, he'd punched you on the face and that would be it.

This is what I fear about releasing guns wide open - that emotionally charged situations that leave someone with a black eye today would end up with someone with a bullet to the head tomorrow. It's clear from statistics that a good deal of gun related deaths is caused by emotional distress rather than pure cold calculation.

And that's about the only think I got against an utterly free gun owernship policy. IMHO, it shouldn't be impossible to get a gun, but one should have to go through a certification process - like with cars. You get a drivers license before you get to drive, so you don't needlessly endanger other people. if the same applied for guns people would be able to get one and in the process some education on how to handle, store etc it.


Santa, this same neighbor could come at you with a 12" kitchen knife and kill you too.

I agree that many people should never own a gun, simply because they have poor self control (over emotional?) but then again, I believe many should not be allowed to drive a car either (Road Rage)

In the US, most states now require that the applicant for a gun license attend a special class to learn about basic gun handling and use.

Admittedly, these classes can be very lacking in content and quality. I recieved my gun license after sitting through a 2 hour class at the police station. However, I never handled a gun during this class. There was a written test at the end of the class, however it was a formality and had no real meaning. After leaving that class, I felt there was nothing of real value that would make me feel comfortable with some of the poeple that attended the class with me.

Personally, I think there should be a far more involved process for obtaining a firearms license, including actual testing with real guns and live ammo.

----

There are more cases that warrant allowing law-abiding people to carry guns.

1. Single women for self protection

2. Street gang violence against individuals

3. Protection from wild animals

Simply taking guns away from everyone will not in itself reduce crime. Rapists will still rape, Gangs will still fight and cause street violence. Some would argue that Rapists and Street gangs would do more crime, knowing that their intended victims have no potential of having a gun to defend themselves.

It all sounds rather hypothetical, but everyone can agree to disagree. In my opinion, an outright ban won't solve anything.


For the record, I own 2 hand guns, 2 rifles and a shot gun. I carry a hand gun with me everywhere it is legal to do so.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2003, 04:22:51 PM by Midnight »

Offline Nashwan

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2003, 04:53:14 PM »
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yes santa but.... we are factoring out the black on black homicides that is over 40% in the U.S. that makes it about even but.


In 2001, the FBI lists 5174 white murder suspects, 5521 black murder suspects,  4520 unkown murder suspects.

Assume less than half the unkown suspects are white, for about 40% of murders comitted by whites.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/xl/01tbl2-6.xls

Total number of murders for that year was 13,752.
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_01/xl/01tbl2-5.xls

Say approx 6000 murders committed by whites.

The US has a population of 280,562,489  (July 2002 estimate) I don't the population change from 2001 to 2002 is that significant

Just over 77% are white

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/us.html

Total white population of US: 216,000,000

Murder rate by whites 2.77

Murders England and Wales (1998 figures from Interpol) 752
Murders Scotland (1998 Interpol) 95
Murders Northern Ireland (1996 Interpol. No newer figures available) 35 (Note some of these were terrorist murders)

Total number murders UK 882

Population UK 59,778,000

Murder rate UK  1.47

Even on these figures, which exclude a large proportion of the urban poor for America, (who committ far more crimes in any country, including Britain), the US comes out well ahead.

But wait, there's more!

The UK figures include manslaughter on the grounds of negligence, the US figures don't. I can't find the numbers of negligence manslaughter cases in the UK, but it's easy to find a great many cases in the news.

That will push the UK rate well down, and increase the difference between the US and UK rates.

Offline Toad

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UK gun laws a failure
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2003, 05:18:46 PM »
Chase your tails all you like.

So far, the only approach that has significantly reduced homicide percentages per 100,000 population is more effective police operations and stiffer penalties for committing violent crime.

The data is there for those with their eyes open. Project Exile in Richmond, Project Cease Fire in Philadelphia, Chicago and Boston, and the recent decrease in violent crime in Kansas City.

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"These firearms in the hands of criminals are what are perpetuating the violence," said Brandt Schenken of the Pittsburgh office of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. "We saw that there was a need to remove firearms from their hands. This is a renewed effort to reduce firearms violence."


Utterly brilliant. Amazing it took them so long to figure it out.

Of course, some places STILL haven't figured it out.

:D

Back to chasing your tails.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2003, 05:21:27 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!