P47 Thunderbolt, by Robert Johnson..

[Furious]

Originally posted by SFRT - Frenchy
Your are totaly right, except that if you had a little more knowledge on the matter and/or read the entire thread ... it's not "a" pilot biography, but "all jug" pilot biography....

I read the thread, though have not read the book.  

All representations in this thread regarding the p47's diving ability are pilot's descripitions.  

Show me in this thread "proof" that a p47 could out dive a 190.  The "evidence" in this thread does not include starting conditions, pilot ability, hours in type, maintenance status of craft, types of loadout, etc.  All it contains is a memory.  And memory is not reliable.

FMs should not be based on what a pilot remembers from a combat sortie.


F.

[bj229r]

Why do folks always discount the views of the people who were actually THERE? The guy kilt 28 planes..nearly all 190's/109s'..but he was LYING..exaggerating..etc (in fairness..Johnson rotated home just before D-Day..I think he was still flyin razorback..doubt D9 was out yet)--BTW..the reason the 190's would always dive out was because that tactic worked fine on spits---whose carbs would cough and spit from negative G's--the jug was the first fighter they ever met that wasnt spit/hurricane

[hazed-]

only older spits had gravity fed carbs.why dopeople always imply they were always that way? sheesh


One point id like to ask is this:

In a high speed dive of say 500 mph+ which aircraft would be able to roll the fastest out of the 190d9, the P47d30 or the P51D?


After chasing a p51d yesterday and finding my ailerons were locking up in my dora only to watch the p51d first roll one way to 90 degree bank then roll to the opersite side and pull up and left hard leaving me struggling even to pull out let alone follow him Ive been trying to find out if this is accurate.

could the p51D outroll and outclimb the dora at high speed in a 40 to 50 degree power dive?

and where would the p47 come in in terms of this situation?

I always thought the 190s had advantage in roll at all speeds but it seems it doesnt in AH.

[lord dolf vader]

out friggin standing question.

[Hristo]

Again, I repeat: I never had the impression I could outdive a P47 in any 190 in this sim. Was I doing something wrong ?

Outaccelerate (by wide margin) and outclimb, sure, but not outdive. Similar for P51.

The only US plane I could outdive was F4U-1D in Fw 190D-9.

Now, Ta 152 is another story. That one is an excellent diver.

[Regurge]

Hazed, there was a chart floating around this board some time ago the had roll rates for 190, P47, and P51 and some others. http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56784>


A few months ago I did a dive test from 20k for some AH planes. I I started at 200kias level and did zero-G to a 45 degree dive, and used the film viewer to measure speed and alt vs time. Turns out that most planes were very close in performance. Out of the planes I tested the P38 was best (till it compressed) and the spit 5 was worst. But at a given time the difference in speed/alt was never more than 20mph/500ft.

The rest were (fastest to slowest) P51D, P47D30, F4U1D, 190A5, Spit9, but were always within 15mph/200ft of each other. For instance the D30 was always equal or slightly faster than the A5, but was never more than 200ft lower. Thats equivalent to pulling ahead by 94yds in a 45 degree dive. Doesnt sound like much, but pilot accounts dont give any numbers so its hard to compare.

Plus, I cant hold zero-G or 45 degrees perfectly so there will be some variance there. Because of that and how close the results were I couldnt really make any conclusion, other than none of them has a really huge dive advantage (like being able to pull 1000yds ahead)

[hazed-]

im not talking dive speeds or acceleration. Im talking aileron and elevator authority or rate of roll in high speed dives.

in other words which aircraft locks up and therefore reduces its rate of  roll.From my chase of the p51d its quite obvious in AH the 190D9 is a great deal slower in the roll at high speed. I barely made a quarter of a roll(locked up in the dora and having to use trim to prevent augering) while the p51d i was chasing easily made a half to 3/4 roll AND pulled out far above me to the left.

does the p47 also roll well at such high speeds? is it correct for  p51d to roll so well at high speeds and does the 190d9 really lock up that bad even though it has pretty much the same wing as the 190a8 which doesnt seem to freeze up in the same manner.

how can i find charts on this behaviour?

AH sorry just noticed the link is to the roll charts and not the thread i thought you meant. Ive seen this chart before,according to the charts the 190 (which vers.?) outrolls the p51b right up to 360mph IAS and then the p51b outrolls the 190 by a mere 5 or 6 degrees.(XP-51 even less so at 373mph) Quite a lot less than what i saw.
theres rooms for a change in the version of 190 as I know the dora had a slightly poorer roll rate than 190a8s but as i described above the p51d outrolled me with at least twice the amount i could manage.It literally made me think something was broken on my joystick!

[gofaster]

Just be glad none of the three P-47 versions modeled in AH are as bad as the P-47 model in Air Warrior.