P47 Thunderbolt, by Robert Johnson..

[rv6]

Hi all..
I'm not much of a "reader", but could not put down this book.  I'm sure that it must've been re-hashed many times on these boards?  It gives a huge insight into the combat flight charactoristics of the main WWII ETO warbirds vs each other,, by a guy that flew with them.

The thing that struck me was his repetitive and absolute description of how his P47 performed against FW-190's..  Too many to mention, except the biggie (to him),, namely:  The P47 in a dive vs. the 190.

Basically, he said (after stinging an FW in rolling scissors)..  ".. he flipped and tried to dive away,, these boys will NEVER LEARN!"

".. the big Thunderbolt roared after him and I had to pull the power to keep from over-running him before shredding him with eight .50's .."

I don't think that the AH P47's v FW's have any noticeable "dive" advantage?   Maybe it's me?

Anyways..  great reading.  Worth the $11

RV6 ~

[ViFF]

its too vague to percisely say a P-47 accelerates faster then a 190 in a dive. Could be that the 190 pilot was pulling some Gs during the dive  i.e. a diving turn, and the 47 could close on him just by cutting inside the circle. Also, he mentioned the "flip" just before saying the 190 tried to dive away. This is a snap roll, and it generaly causes alot of drag, sometimes its a result of a full blown accelerated stall. It can't be done at high speed with the 190, which tells you that the 190 was slow to start with, and even slower after he did the "flip" as its a high drag manuever as I mentioned before.

other then that,  I think I should get the book too

[SFRT - Frenchy]

ALL Thunderbolt pilots enounciated the same diving advantage over the LW aircrafts. It's just propaganda, I'm happy that HTC straigthened out the legend and modeled the P47/LW dive performances as they should be.

HTC.

A book I enjoyed is the one from Zemke. Good description of it's pilots behavior, his efforts to integrate this new weapon called the Thunderbolt ... and a WOW ending when he describes some of it's captivity adventures.

[rv6]

Heheehehe..  "propoganda".

To kinda' sorta' reiterate his description..
It wasn't a stall, or snap roll that the FW's did,,

It was a knee-jerk escape or die technique that they did, when (and I quote) ".. looking back and seeing the huge wing full of fire bearing down on them.."  (a P47 wing)..

wing tip up, was a visual explanation of the FW going inverted..

".. he rolled inverted, and split-s down into a power dive, smoke rolled out his exhaust chute so I knew he had it firewalled.."

And yet?  This Johnson fellow clearly enumerated each of his 28 kills,, about 15 of them were by diving right up the FW's 6, in a powerdive.. ?

I dunno..  I s'pose ya gotta' read the book.  Many graphic descriptions of the things he saw, that we in AH don't..

IE:  The bailing 109 pilot with P51 in close behind,, german pilot ends up inpaled on the P51 spinner,, then instantly shredded.. etc, etc..  Stuff that most don't think about.  Uuugh ~

Later gator..

RV6

[KG45]

whats the mystery about why a jug out dives a FW?

i mean, would gravity have anything to do with it? the fact the jug was a monsterous brick with stubby wings?

[AKIron]

Was a great read, enjoyed it a lot.

[maxtor]

Originally posted by rv6
Heheehehe..  "propoganda".

I think Frenchy (being a jug pilot of some note) was being sarcastic.

[humble]

Originally posted by ViFF
its too vague to percisely say a P-47 accelerates faster then a 190 in a dive. Could be that the 190 pilot was pulling some Gs during the dive  i.e. a diving turn, and the 47 could close on him just by cutting inside the circle. Also, he mentioned the "flip" just before saying the 190 tried to dive away. This is a snap roll, and it generaly causes alot of drag, sometimes its a result of a full blown accelerated stall. It can't be done at high speed with the 190, which tells you that the 190 was slow to start with, and even slower after he did the "flip" as its a high drag manuever as I mentioned before.

other then that,  I think I should get the book too

Actually viff the 190 would enter an accelerated tip stall at very high speed (318mph) at lower alt (2000m I think). The germans lost a lot of pilots in 42-43 due to this and actually issued directives regarding "dogfighting" the 190 at lower alts to cut down on the losses. Apparently it was a quite violent and sudden stall and difficult to recover from quickly.

[ViFF]

Don't know about that Humble, I'm no 190 expert, but I do know it would take a hell of a stick forcing to get the 190 into an accelerated stall at that speed. I do agree its possible, but in the end its all symantics and dry physics, the pilot would probably be dead of excessive Gs from all these experiments just for the sake of argument.

The reason I said what I said is because there is a very big difference in my mind when a pilot says "FLIP" as opposed to "ROLL".

a flip is harder to do the faster you are flying, and at some point of alt/speed is impossible.

KG45: Gravity has nothing to do with it as its a constant force (ever see a hammer and feather droped at the same time and hit the ground at the same time ? I have  ), but rather drag coefficient.

[Wlfgng]

dag and weight

[maxtor]

Has anyone considered the question as to WHICH 190 models are being referred to?  This would be a rather important distinction.  It is my understanding that there are 190s, and then there are 190's.

[Hristo]

About a year ago I was chasing a P47 in Fw 190D-9. When we were level, I was closing slowly. When he pointed his nose down (very  shallow dive), he was gaining. Only when we got to the deck and speed dropped did I start to close again.

This was after a long fight where we had our E quite leveled. The fight included spiral climbing, rolling scissors and finally the chase. P47 could easily stay on D-9 six for most maneuvers except ones where E income is important. D-9 could spiral climb P47 quite easily.

That P47 could do it for a long time, enough to cover a sector from 5k.

Same happened to me in 190A-8 when I flew in the arena. I could catch P47 only when level and on the deck. If he lowered his nose even slightly to follow the terrain, the distance increased.

So, are you trying to say it isn't like that anymore ? Otherwise, it might look as...err, whining ?

[Furious]

come on...pilot impressions aren't worth toejam.  The LWers get crap all the time for posting pilot impressions and pretending that 'cause some pilot said it it is fact.

...and the wieght of a jug is immaterial as far as acceleration due to gravity goes.



I don't know which should outdive the other.  But I wouldn't use a pilot's biography to judge AH's FMs.  That'd be retarded.



F.

[SFRT - Frenchy]

Originally posted by Furious

I don't know which should outdive the other.  But I wouldn't use a pilot's biography to judge AH's FMs.  That'd be retarded.
F.

Your are totaly right, except that if you had a little more knowledge on the matter and/or read the entire thread ... it's not "a" pilot biography, but "all jug" pilot biography.

My experience in AH is that if you cruise at 20k and you turnfight a FW-A8, D9, FW-A5 or g10 (dono for other 109s) and you end up in their six, they do a split S and run to the deck... then you will catch up with them ... like never. I did caught a G6 in the CT, but it was after the 20k dive to the deck followed by a 1 sector chase.

The most frustrating is following the FW in a split s from 700y his six, power dive, and while you are compressing at 550+, see him flipflop roll and go away.

In Aces High, most guys fly the ubber stuff like D9 or G10, that's probably why our experience doesn't match WW2 aces experience.
G10 and D9 are probably closer to a P47M than the D series that we have now, which should more match with A5s and F4/G2/G6s.

[Hornet]

hehe Robert Johnson's book has been causing problems in flight sims for how long now

my fav is the dogfight with the spit...