Author Topic: Ideas Regarding GV cover  (Read 468 times)

Offline maxtor

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« on: January 07, 2003, 09:00:08 AM »
GV's need some sort of cover available in forested areas from airplanes.  In particular the well hidden small vehicles like M3's, m-16's and M-8's.  Short of redesigning the game - I wondered if this was possible:

(1)  Perhaps with in a certain distance from a terrain tree, GV icon would not be visible to aircraft at any range (to simulate being under a tree).

(2)  Perhaps in certain terrain tiles could have variable GV icon ranges?  Wooded areas having no icon at all, and at the other extreme desert having longest icon range.

(3)  Design skins for the GV's suitable for that map's terrain.  In our hypothetical MA arena, desert camo probably wouldnt be used in forrest - nor would forrest camo be used in a desert.

Perhaps these things could be done in the framework of the existing system?

Offline Sabre

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2003, 09:11:45 AM »
In the Wargamer interview with HiTech, published just after Con '02, HiTech said he was considering GV cover similar to IL-2's, i.e. a floating layer above the ground that would hide GV's from airplanes.  If you painted it to match the folliage of what ever trees you were using in that area of the terrain, then placed it over the tree-covered area, you would see the trunks of the trees merging into this floating forest canopy.
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Offline maxtor

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2003, 09:14:53 AM »
I saw that too, but evidently there are problems with doing that as it has not been talked about since (that I can find).  What I was hoping was, the ideas in my previous post might be implemented without redesigning terrains or any other big (labor intensive) changes or downloads.

As I understand it, my suggestion (3) is already possible, I read somewhere that skins are part of terrain file.  
« Last Edit: January 07, 2003, 09:17:50 AM by maxtor »

Offline Shiva

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Re: Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2003, 11:23:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by maxtor
(3)  Design skins for the GV's suitable for that map's terrain.  In our hypothetical MA arena, desert camo probably wouldnt be used in forrest - nor would forrest camo be used in a desert.


Vehicle colors. That opens up a big can of worms. For the M3, M8, and M16, you're SOL; the US Army picked a color that would be reasonably good in any terrain, and painted everything that color. Likewise, Russian tanks -- if we ever get the T-34 added -- were generally painted in a single green or brown color overall (the shade depending on how the paint was mixed), rarely in two contrasting shades of green or green and earth brown, and even more rarely having a three-color pattern of dark green, earth brown and yellow or brick red, with white applied as whitewash for winter. Later in the war, white aerial-recognition markings were painted on the upper surface of armored vehicles.

German camouflage gets complex. Originally, vehicles were painted Panzer grey, with or without a dark green/dark brown overspray. In 1941, vehicles destined for Africa were to be painted sand yellow with a grey-green overspray; vehicles used in south Russia were sometimes painted with the tropical pattern, as well. In early 1942, the tropical colors were replaced by brown ('dark sand') with a Panzer grey overspray. The first Tigers in Russia were painted in plain Panzer grey; when deployed in Tunis, they were still in Panzer grey, but with a dark green overspray. In early 1943, the base color for all vehicles was changed to sand yellow, with olive green and red-brown to be used as oversprays (either or both at the discretion of the unit commander).

In August of 1944, a different sand yellow was designated for the base color, with olive green and red-brown as oversprays, with yellow, grey, or white mottling through the green/brown areas and green mottling on the yellow areas; this was referred to as the 'ambush' pattern. At the end of October of 1944, the base color was changed to a red oxide primer with sand yellow, field gray, and red-brown as possible oversprays. At the end of November of 1944, the base color was changed to olive green, with sand yellow and red brown as available oversprays. In early 1945, the colors reverted to the August 1944 colors. In the spring of 1945, a final designation of Panzer grey as the base color with olive green and red-brown as oversprays was made, although it isn't known how many vehicles were actually deployed with this coloration due to the breakdown of production and transportation. For winter camouflage, washable white paint was widely used on the Eastern front, but rarely on the Western front.

Because of shortages from 1944 on, though, many vehicles were not given any camouflage at all, being deployed in the base sand yellow, with camouflage being applied, if at all, under field conditions. Additionally, the paint that was supplied in the field for camouflage painting was delivered in the form of pastes, which were to be thinned with gasoline and sprayed onto the vehicles. Because of fuel shortages, and shortages of the spraying equipment, the paint was often thinned with other fluids and applied with whatever was at hand, resulting in a wide variation in shade for the overspray colors. Additionally, units would often use captured supplies or foreign paints or -- particularly in North Africa -- a slurry of mud slopped over the vehicle, which wore off quickly but often provided a much better match to the terrain than the official camouflage colors.

When the base colors were ordered changed from Panzer grey to sand yellow, paint was issued to units for field repainting; some units completely repainted their vehicles, while others merely applied the sand yellow as a camouflage overspray on top of the base color.

So, depending on when during the war and what theatre, it wasn't that uncommon to find vehicles that had paint jobs that didn't do a particularly good job of matching the terrain the vehicle was operating in. It would be nice, particularly with vehicles, to have more than one skin available in a terrain (chosen randomly at launch), to eliminate the cookie-cutter tanks with identical camouflage patterns, but that's got to be way down on the priority list.

Offline Sakai

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Re: Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2003, 11:40:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by maxtor
GV's need some sort of cover available in forested areas from airplanes.  


The forests inte Fin/Rus map were absolutely splendid.  Tall trees, you could drive through the gaps and planes would have difficulty locating/hitting you.

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Offline ccvi

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Re: Re: Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2003, 11:51:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shiva
It would be nice, particularly with vehicles, to have more than one skin available in a terrain (chosen randomly at launch)


That'll create the repeatedly respawn dweep for panzer design. Oh noo! :D

Offline maxtor

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2003, 12:16:19 PM »
In our Ace High arenas, the truely 3-D natural suroundings for which these paint schemes were chosen has not been yet recreated.

While interesting historical information, keep in mind we are not recreating World War II in the MA.  Our terrains have limitations the actual war did not.  It seems reasonable, had WWII been waged in our arena terrains, the vehicles would have been adapted (i.e. they would have chosn paint schemes suitable for the arena just as they did for the actual war terrains as you described)

edit to further add: surely such skins could be easily and rapidly obtained.   My initial post was looking for ideas that could be implemented at low cost and in a short time window.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2003, 12:19:23 PM by maxtor »

Offline DarkStarStv

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2003, 11:34:35 AM »
sorry to interrupt.. just testing signature...

Offline DarkStarStv

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2003, 11:47:39 AM »
... and again...

Offline john9001

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2003, 01:47:26 PM »
maxtor has a good idea with the variable icon visability range.

Offline maxtor

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Re: Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2003, 11:43:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by maxtor
(3)  Design skins for the GV's suitable for that map's terrain.  In our hypothetical MA arena, desert camo probably wouldnt be used in forrest - nor would forrest camo be used in a desert.


yaaa!  I know wasn't my idea, but darn glad to see it.

Offline Kweassa

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2003, 12:27:25 PM »
I also had someideas about gvs and ground cover. Basically, this was what I pictured ...

Offline Pongo

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2003, 12:37:04 PM »
Its not the icon. Its the dot.
I sugested 2 years ago that they make the dot disapear at greater then 3k when the vehicle is stationary or moving very slowly. At  high speed make the icon visisble at greater then 3k. So a vehicle can ambush much more effectively. The player makes decisions what he wants to focus on. Stealth or speed. Just like a real vehicle commander.

Most in the field vehicle camoflage is heavily influenced by the natural enviroment. The dust and mud of the local terrain soon coats the vehicle and provides a very effective local tone to the paint scheme.
This is true of German Dark Grey and US army Olive and Soviet dark green. They all weather to a shade that provides effective camoflage for most anything but snow.

Offline Batz

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2003, 12:48:46 PM »
Pongo is right its not the icon or camo. Its the black dot that came be easily seen from distance. Camo makes no difference at all.

Folks have worked on gv cover similiar to il2 for ah. Its doable.

Offline bockko

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Ideas Regarding GV cover
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2003, 01:36:36 PM »
one problem with the ambush style of gv warfare -- that gv would, in real life, be ratted out by ground troops. No tank for flak panzer would be able to sneak up to an enemy field unnoticed or unopposed as you can in ah.

my 2cw

bockk