Author Topic: rank = time?  (Read 1603 times)

Offline g00b

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rank = time?
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2003, 02:24:18 PM »
DR. YO

I was speaking in general about the GV's. And while I love a good vulch :) I have not racked up many kills this tour that way. As I stated before I have a pretty suicidal attack style, I will not shy away from a HO if I am at the E disadvantage, and I have even been known to go for a ram when out of ammo :) Didn't realise my country killin bias, I'll have to fix that :)

Offline DoctorYO

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rank = time?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2003, 02:37:11 PM »
I see by the quote a post tactic and overall rancor spewing... that shoe must of fit you and touched a soft spot...

I dont consider suicide a style or tactic...

If you do enjoy....

Using your qoute a post discredit tactic.:

Quote
You've stated this before as the reason to eliminate K/T, but that's just silly. Vulching increases all stats from K/T to K/D to K/S to hit percentage. Everything benefits. So to single out K/T as being the sole byproduct of vulching is silly and self-serving.


I never stated that ... your speaking for me... maybe your esp is superior to mine cause i cant read your mind.. show me where i stated that .... implied that....  yes your feeble discredit tactics have been exposed.. give it a rest...  

Vulching does increase all stats as stated i have no problem with that... but why should a guy who say kills 5 bandits thru vulching and another guy kills 5 bandits..also thru vulching. now guy A dies for whatever reason... and guy B lives and flys home...  one guy has a kd of 2.5 and the other 5.0 now heres where it gets good.  Due to the fact that the rank system is based on a curve... overalll rank will be affected more by the fella you augers himself... maintaining a above average KD and a superior KOT and the guy B who lands his kill is penalized because transit time home...  KOT Curve is higher due to the increased vulch in the main...  

The large majority of fliers in this game do not land there kills hence the curve system will penalize those who do...  at the same token... most people worth there salt can maintain a decent amount of kills before death... hence using the curve system k/d has less weight....  there is more benefit to die and lower my K/D to raise my KOT as opposed to raising my K/D alone...  (I look forward for you to aurgue this one.)





2 cents




DoctorYo  

Please post again... be shure to get the last word in, its your destiny... and dont forget the qoute a post discredit words in your mouth tactics, i like those.

:p

Offline DoctorYO

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rank = time?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2003, 02:42:47 PM »
Hitech,

K/D should be the primary factor....

gunnery if used second...

then streaks....

weighted plane score....  exp ( 202 kills are better kills than la7)

dammage per sortie and dammage a death i think currently on on the money...

Bomber stats are also on the money...

if you use KOT lower percentage... of its worth..  right now under fighter stat its 20%

My opinion thats too high...



DoctorYo

Offline Urchin

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rank = time?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2003, 02:50:56 PM »
I don't think K/T should be weighed any less that K/D and K/S.  I haven't even checked my fighter score in a while (in fact.. I'll do that now!).  

Ok, now that I've checked scores, I'll compare em.  

My stats:  K/D 5.25, K/S 3.18, K/T 10.62, hit% 11.3
Total Sorties: 33, Landed 13, Bailed 2, Ditch 1, 17 deaths

Your stats:  K/D 8.08, K/S 1.86, K/T 4.75, hit% 14.2
Total Sorties: 52, Landed 41, Bailed 2, 9 Deaths.

OK, we see here that your K/D is 50% (roughly) higher, my K/S is about 50% higher, my K/T is a bit more than 100% higher, your hit% is 30% higher or so.  

You've got about 16,000 points, I've got 9,000 or so.  I've flown a little bit less than half your hours (in fighters).  

I'm ranked 64, you are ranked 136.  

Now... why are the ranks the way they are?  Remember that all the categories are weighted equally, so nothing is more important than anything else.  The best way to get a good fighter score is to kill fast, kill a lot, and shoot straight.  

They also give you a handy little thing so you can keep track of how you are doing against other people in individual categories.  

So, we'll go through these category by category.  My K/D of 5.25 is quite a bit higher than most people in the MA can manage, so I've got a good rank in that one.  I'm ranked 69th in K/D.  Yours, at 8.08, is even BETTER than mine... but since both of ours is so much better than the average, it doesn't really have that large of an effect.  You are ranked 26th overall.  So, in K/D you are 43 places ahead of me.  

My K/S of 3.18 is, again, a lot better than most people in the MA can manage.  So I'm ranked 27th overall in that category.  Your K/S is a very respectable 1.86.  Good for a ranking of 169th.  As you can see, the K/S category is quite a bit more competitive than the K/D category is.  A difference of only 1.32 planes per sortie resulted in me gaining back 142 spots on you.  As opposed to a 2.83 difference in K/D only resulting in a 43 place spread.

My K/T is 10.62.  While good, it isnt stellar (partly because as Leviathn explained- the shorter the flight TO the furball, the better the K/T.. and I tend to gain some alt before I go in.  Once I get 'stuck in' I can probably get 1-2 kills a minute, depending on how rich the environment is).  It is good for a ranking of 81 overall.  10.62 kills per hour is just about 1 kill every 6 minutes.  Your K/T is 4.75.  No offense intended, but that is absolutely abysmal if you are going for overall rank.  That will take what would otherwise be a sub-100 fighter rank and drop it like a rock.  Again, you can get a sense of how much more competitive the K/T category is than the K/D category- not to many people in the MA can kill very fast, so if you can, you can really get good fighter rank even with otherwise 'average' stats.  Anyway, a K/T of 4.75 is good for a rank of 983 in that category.  You are still probably in the top 25% of the MA population as far as K/T goes (at least I think there are at least 4,000 people playing this game by now), but it is definately the weakest area.  Your K/T works about to about one kill every twelve and a half minutes.  

Lastly, there is points.  And to be honest, yes, points is the 'great equalizer'.  You can take someone who has one AWESOME sortie... landing 18 kills in 45 seconds, and he'll still have a crappy overall fighter rank if he only flies that one sortie in a month.  However, I think that is how it should be.  The points category gives you a way to distinguish a pilot that is GOOD from a pilot that is LUCKY.  It is much much harder to maintain good stats over an extended period of time than it is to have 1 or 2 lucky sorties.  Anyway, niether of us are particularly competitive in the points category, me placing 623rd overall with 9,200 points, and you placing 271st with 16,700.  

To clarify an earlier point.. once you get in the 'top' of a certain category, it ceases to mean a whole lot as a good way to 'boost' your score against your competitors.  If out of 100 people Leviathn places 1st in the K/T category with 20 kills per hour, and I finish 2nd with 10 kills per hour, but 3rd place is 1 kill an hour- I've got a lot of 'wiggle room' as far as K/T goes.  I'm going to keep 2nd place unless I go on a super MA tour where I fly at 75,000 feet and never fight for the rest of the month.  The same thing happens with K/D and K/S.  There is like a 'ceiling' (or a floor, maybe) where once you get above it, it really doesn't MATTER what the individual stat is.  I'd say probably if you can get above a 4/1 K/D you will be in the top 100 for the tour (in that category).  A K/S of maybe 2.25 would be good for the top 100 (I think, that one might be a little off though).  Likewise, a K/T of 8.5 to 9.0 will get you in the top 125 (or maybe 150).  From there the only thing you need to do is fly more and kill more stuff to get points.  

That is why even though there is a HUGE disparity in our K/D, our rank really isnt all that different in that category- both of us are above that 'ceiling'.  However, my K/S and K/T are also above the ceiling, and yours aren't yet.

Offline Dead Man Flying

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rank = time?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2003, 03:04:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DoctorYO
I see by the quote a post tactic and overall rancor spewing... that shoe must of fit you and touched a soft spot...
[/B]

Um, right.  You really hit a soft spot about score in an online game.  LOL!  

Quote
I dont consider suicide a style or tactic...
[/B]

Suicide isn't.  Furballing with a high probability of death at the end of it is.  Feel free to not consider it a valid style or tactic, but you would be incorrect.  It may not be your style, or one that you would ever enjoy doing, but the fact remains that it's out there, people do it, and you're just going to have to deal with it.

Quote
I never stated that ... your speaking for me... maybe your esp is superior to mine cause i cant read your mind.. show me where i stated that .... implied that....  yes your feeble discredit tactics have been exposed.. give it a rest...
[/B]

Well, let's see.  I do believe you wrote:

[See what i stated earlier is right here in front of us fellas... If you land your kills you are penalized.

If you attack deep into enemy bases your are penalized.

Vulching is rewarded...


And my point to that was that vulching rewards everything, including K/T.  First, as HiTech stated, vulching does involving flying into enemy territory.  And second, if you believe K/D should be rewarded disproportionately (as you've told HiTech), you must realize that this stat may also be gamed through vulching or other completely unrealistic tactics.  Seriously, you're coming across here as someone who flies very cautiously, flies to live, and picks your encounters very carefully.  There's nothing wrong with that, and I never stated that there was, but to expect that this flying style will or should be rewarded greater than others is silly and self-serving.  That, and vulching all the time improves K/D greater than careful flying ever could.  So why not just come out against vulching in general rather than K/T in particular?

Quote
Vulching does increase all stats as stated i have no problem with that... but why should a guy who say kills 5 bandits thru vulching and another guy kills 5 bandits..also thru vulching. now guy A dies for whatever reason... and guy B lives and flys home...  one guy has a kd of 2.5 and the other 5.0 now heres where it gets good.  Due to the fact that the rank system is based on a curve... overalll rank will be affected more by the fella you augers himself... maintaining a above average KD and a superior KOT and the guy B who lands his kill is penalized because transit time home...  KOT Curve is higher due to the increased vulch in the main...  
[/B]

That doesn't make any sense.  Overall rank isn't based on a curve; it's based on the average of your rank in all of the individual categories (Fighter, Bomber, Attack, Vehicle), which themselves are figured by your average rank in each category (K/D, K/S, K/T, hit percentage, and points for fighters).  So the first guy will rank lower than the second in K/D but higher in K/T and vice-versa... I don't see the problem with this, as the difference in time will and should be very small.  You overstate the case.

Quote
The large majority of fliers in this game do not land there kills hence the curve system will penalize those who do...  at the same token... most people worth there salt can maintain a decent amount of kills before death... hence using the curve system k/d has less weight....
[/B]

I see a lot more people with K/T over 10 than I see with K/D over 3.  It should be a lot easier for a seasoned pilot worth his salt to rank very highly in K/D than it would be for some average guy to rank highly in K/T.

Quote
Please post again... be shure to get the last word in, its your destiny... and dont forget the qoute a post discredit words in your mouth tactics, i like those.
[/B]

You have issues.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Offline hitech

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rank = time?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2003, 03:13:44 PM »
DoctorYO, Not jumping on you, you answered how you wish scoring to be. Thats not what im asking.

Im asking what type of flying style you would like to promote.
B&Z, Furball, mission based, turn fighting,running away, energy tatics, bombing, ground target attacking.  Or describe it anyway you wish, these were just some examples.

HiTech

Offline g00b

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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2003, 03:19:24 PM »
Hitech! Since you seem to be watching this thread, can you maybe answer the original question for me? What do you think about making "time" a bit less of a factor in overall ranking? Just curious what your take on it is? Thanks for your time, it has been fun seeing your presence online and in the game . And BTW I like the current ranking balance of the various categories, with the exception of points of course....
« Last Edit: January 15, 2003, 03:21:25 PM by g00b »

Offline DoctorYO

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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2003, 03:27:39 PM »
As stated earlier I dont vulch rarely i do but thats to prevent them from upping and downing our goon...

During base capture im the guy who sets up the barcap so that the enemy doesn't  up a base away and rain on our capture...

Now see thats a team thing im doing im helping the overall effort but yes my KOT as you state is Abysmal....

why penalize me. for using tactics...

I honestly think at times ive prevented whole counter attacks from forming by harassing anything that moves deep in enemy territory...  I get no bonus for this.. nor do i want one but to be shafted in a catagory for 20% worth.. is bad..

As where if i vulchalot (no relation to sir mixalot) And then auger to prevent landing.. my KOT will jump thru the roof... Bonus....    IMO Thats gamey as hell...    

as I stated earlier... there is more curve to KOT than. K/D.. and hence its weighted more...


For todds argument that K/D should be weighted the same as KOT..

Erich Hartman...  so many kills no deaths

Sakai....  so many kills no deaths

and the list go on and on....

every book / wings program etc.. always lists the kills to death of the particular fighter  ....   f6 14-1

f4 11-1 loss ratio...   etc... etc....


This i why i rate this skill so highly...  (you call it a style) This is a ww2 game...  aces were determined by their ability to kill the enemy and survive....

now if you want to promote vulching ramming, augering , and overall loss of attrition resources as some skill or style.  I just dont see it...  Maybe im off my rocker.. Andy Rooney style

maybe im from bizarro and i got it all wrong....

Todd I knew you would let me.  the quote a post rancor very nice ..  




:cool:

DoctorYO

Offline g00b

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rank = time?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2003, 03:36:38 PM »
I agree with YO that surviving the mission is the more realistic way to fly. Getting more kills at the expense of your own life will give you a better rank. I think the solution is to simply give a bigger perk bonus for landing the mission. There is a balance between getting better rank for getting that one more kill even though you died and getting better rank because you made it home. When you have a big enough perk bonus for landing that even I will opt for a safe return over one last kamikaze kill that balance has been achieved.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2003, 03:54:53 PM »
Goob: Points are the equalizer, it's harder to run high stats for a longer period of time. It also promotes living by wanting to RTB to get 4 times as many points.

DoctorYO, so if I parphrase what your saying it's you wish to promote a more "realistic" style of flying?  


BTW on a side note, not sure but wasn't harman shot down a few times?

HiTech

Offline Pongo

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rank = time?
« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2003, 04:04:29 PM »
Hartman was shot down 6? times

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2003, 04:08:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Hartman was shot down 6? times


The number of top scoreing ww2 aces that where shot down themselves is very high.  The number that landed with dud cannon rounds in thier aircraft was also very high. In our game those would be kills as there are no duds.

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2003, 04:13:03 PM »
Sakai was shot down too. Of course maybe it's the "death" part that isn't registering right  :)

In the end, the very type of flying that Dr. Yo is endorsing is promoted all the time. In special events. I know that's probably not a satisfactory answer, but that's where I go to find it.

-Sik
You: Blah Blah Blah
Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline hitech

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« Reply #43 on: January 15, 2003, 04:37:12 PM »
Went and looked it up, under our score system hartman would be 352/(16 + 1)

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #44 on: January 15, 2003, 04:38:19 PM »
Bet his K/S and K/T would be LOUSY though ;) :D