Author Topic: rank = time? (Read 1626 times)

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #45 on:** January 15, 2003, 06:53:08 PM »

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Originally posted by DoctorYO
This i why i rate this skill so highly... (you call it a style) This is a ww2 game... aces were determined by their ability to kill the enemy and survive....

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I can guarantee you that however you're flying in the Main Arena is nowhere close to how any of the aces you've just mentioned flew in real life.

These were guys with mission objectives as well as lives to protect (not necessarily their own). The engaged when they had alt and numbers advantages, and they engaged when they were totally outnumbered and outclassed. Why? Because that was their job and their duty. If you're going to compare what you do to Hartmann or Sakai, I suggest you allow yourself to be outnumbered at least 20 to 1 in every engagement while attempting to achieve a real mission objective other than simple survival. Bringing home your wingman and fellow squadmates will be essential, as killing numerous enemies while losing the rest of your flight would be considered a mission failure.

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now if you want to promote vulching ramming, augering , and overall loss of attrition resources as some skill or style. I just dont see it... Maybe im off my rocker.. Andy Rooney style

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I promote ramming? Wow, please quote where I say that.

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maybe im from bizarro and i got it all wrong....

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Yes, you have a few things fundamentally misunderstood. The first is this belief that your flying style (and it is a style, not a skill, though you may skillfully fly using that style) is the only valid one. The second mistake you make is assuming that the way you fly even remotely approximates reality.

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Todd I knew you would let me. the quote a post rancor very nice ..

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I won't even pretend to understand what that's supposed to mean.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Puck · « **Reply #46 on:** January 15, 2003, 08:02:36 PM »

Hrm. Time does matter, because as you idle and the other lusers play your kills and points go down in relation to everyone elses, and your ranking drops.

I do have a suggestion, though. Why not add a "streak" factor. Landings, bails, and ditches don't stop the streak, captures and deaths do. Hartmann would end up with a K/D of 352/(16+1), but a streak of 352. If you wanted to get real clever (and slow the server down with math) you can make chances of successfully executing your SE&E (it became SERE after my time) training based on your point score; the more points, the greater the chances of escaping (assuming you don't bail on the enemy tower).

That would support the whole concept of flying to live; defense and intelligent offence. It would also give you some incentive (aside from raw points) to bring your machine home.

Not to mention making the streak people, of which I'm one, happy.

On a side note, just for grins one month I score potatod. I suck, plain and simple, but I was still ranked 74th for a while. It's not a hard thing to manipulate.

DoctorYO · « **Reply #47 on:** January 16, 2003, 08:45:40 AM »

HT what im saying is that you can fly any style you want... You want to furball and mix it up go for it... you want e fight go for it...

Im not trying to force peoplel into any style... Im just saying that K/D is not weighted enough... and KOT is weighted too much..

Style and suicide tactics is like apples and oranges...

Style is the method of how you get your kills... suicide tactics is suicide any way you look at it... IF you die in action a quick fix to the system would be a +2-5 mins added to your flight time... (why shouldn't you get that penalty... you got killed)

Your buddy who was in the same furball no matter what style he flys still has to RTB and that counts toward his KOT.. why should someone who dies be exempt from this...

that way everyone can fly whatever style they want... and exploiting holes in the scoring system would be stemmed.

the Turn and Burners can turn and burn... Vulchers can vulch... but when they try to pad their stats by suicide attack they wouldn't be able to... The time penalty would kick in...

Now you asked what style i prefer.. Kill the enemy is my style.. My style changes with my enemy... If hes hard im soft.. (e fighting) then when he's soft ill saddle (t&b) to distance 100-400 light him up..

As far a realism I would prefer more.. but with the recent influx of novices that might not be good for your business model.

I think airfields should be harder to capture than they are now.. The amount of small arms comming from a base should be huge... not just 37mm You should have tons of 7.62 .30 and .50 cal comming from the base until capture. This would make vulching harder until you strafed the small arms..(infantry.) Like at resupply bases you have all those tents why not have lots of static infantry (like the base capture infantry except shooting) on airbases..

I dont want lazer* (* no pun intended) guided ack.. considering I was with airdefense when I was in the service and I have seen modern airdefence in action.. Its extremely hard to hit a moving target even with 20mm gatling gun like the Vulcan cannon.. (+1000 rounds per minute..) Even with radar as distance was increased dispersion was increased and you chance for hits would drop big time... without radar to manually shoot a aircraft gong say 400 mph in a diagonal would be extremely rare..

so what im saying aircraft shouldn't really be vulrable to ground fire unless they come within -1000 yards....

As of current osties can pop you at 2.0 plus pretty consistantly and thats pretty inaccurate even for modern air defense..

In short more Air defense but less accurate air defense unless you fly right on top of the ack...

End HT...

Todd.... please use the quote a post .. I enjoy that..

"you said this" and "I say this"... Your chimp tactics are feeble..

You cant even see that the score system is curve based in the individual catagories .. i'll break it down for you... you have a high and a low; now graph that... yes what do you see.. your going to have more people in the middle less on top and less on the bottom. The graph should look like a U of some sort depending on your data on the graph side.. Any graph that looks like a U is a curve.. now like I said depending on how you place you data table on the sides; could make the U upside down. never the less its still a Curve.

House plants have more math skills than you todd. Get some education.. youll go far..

2 cents

DoctorYo

Ps Hitech not trying to drag you BB into the gutter... but Math Boy likes to rub and im rubbing back... I wont escalate this no matter what math boy posts next...

End, Fin, Fini, Hoca, Jubu, E

End...

hitech · « **Reply #48 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:09:45 AM »

DoctorYO You apear to be only looking at one side of the equation.

What K/T realy is , is agresivness, In the real world accomplishing the mission was a huge part of the run/fight dissicion making proccess. With out it, why be agressive, why not just pick and choose your kills, and alway run when at a dissadvantage.

Take a look hartman: The resone he is viewed as one of the best is because of his K/T, i.e. he killed the most during the time of the war. Infact I belive there are quite a few other pilots around with a much better K/d. The resone he had a great K/T is because he was agressive. Plus he mostly doing the exact opisit of what you wish to promote, "Deep missions" I belive most of his kills came with short defensive missions.

So changing K/T would not make things more realistic, but wrather would make it less realisitic.

2nd.
Most people don't wish to admit it, but most people at least look at there score, and changing the score system affects game play greatly in the arena.

I've seen examples of making K/D to high, it completly changes the way people fly. Suddenly attacking only happens when the player is very sure he will not be killed. When everyone is doing this at once, what you end up with is everyone running all the time, and very little acm. In fact it even promots vulching, because that is the simplest way to get kills with out much risk.

3rd.
You realy can't game the game with K/T because consentrating on it alone will lower your other stats. I.E. Beeing to agressive gets you killed.

As for you non scorring items you brought in, thats a completly different discusion.

HiTech

maxtor · « **Reply #49 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:10:49 AM »

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Originally posted by Pongo
In our game those would be kills as there are no duds.

I am not so sure of that. I am beginning to believe that, due to the variety of connection quality between players, there can indeed be hits from your side that do not register as hits on your opponents side - hence "duds".

maxtor · « **Reply #50 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:26:26 AM »

I have no idea how it could be done otherwise, but it is a shame that returning to base (your real base) would have any sort of penalty at all. As I understand it thus far, the time you spend returning to your base hurts your K/T quite a bit.

DoctorYO · « **Reply #51 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:33:33 AM »

Got a solution....

prorate the a average time it would take to return based on your location...

example:

base defenders who die on top of their base would be penalized 0-30 secs..

people dying in enemy territory would have the 5 mins its takes to get back to base...

you already have the code in place with how captures are determined... put in a extra table and link em..

You can be aggressive as you want but you cannont exploit the time it takes to RTB...

just a thought...

DoctorYo

maxtor · « **Reply #52 on:** January 16, 2003, 09:40:33 AM »

I don't know how complicated any of this is to implement. But perhaps it would be enough to just not allow landing at an enemy base to count as a normal landing?

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #53 on:** January 16, 2003, 10:48:42 AM »

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Originally posted by DoctorYO
Todd.... please use the quote a post .. I enjoy that..

"you said this" and "I say this"... Your chimp tactics are feeble..

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Wow, my chimp tactics! LOL! Please keep going on, you're a riot! So much cleverness packaged into one person.

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You cant even see that the score system is curve based in the individual catagories .. i'll break it down for you... you have a high and a low; now graph that... yes what do you see.. your going to have more people in the middle less on top and less on the bottom. The graph should look like a U of some sort depending on your data on the graph side.. Any graph that looks like a U is a curve.. now like I said depending on how you place you data table on the sides; could make the U upside down. never the less its still a Curve.

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Holy toejam, thanks for the lesson on bell curves. It still sucks that you're about three standard deviations below the mean in K/T, but that's not K/T's fault... that's your own. Even despite your flying style, you have an atrocious K/T. You're overstating how skewed that curve is because, once again, you're acting in a self-serving manner without regard to reality.

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House plants have more math skills than you todd. Get some education.. youll go far..

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OMG I'm owned!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #54 on:** January 16, 2003, 11:42:04 AM »

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Originally posted by maxtor
I don't know how complicated any of this is to implement. But perhaps it would be enough to just not allow landing at an enemy base to count as a normal landing?

That's an excellent suggestion, maxtor, and one to which I think everyone could agree.

And again, DoctorYO offered up a solution (prorated average return time) that just smacks of self-interest. Wouldn't you know he's the kind of guy who flies far, kills stuff, tries to live, and then returns to base? And I wonder what kind of flying style such a system would benefit in overall rank?

-- Todd/Leviathn

hitech · « **Reply #55 on:** January 16, 2003, 12:40:22 PM »

DoctorYO ,So if you got vulched taking off, you now get even more penalized?

And btw, when everyone is in enemy territory, who is there to fight, when no one is in there own ?

Why Is an attack, i.e. in enemy territory better than a defensive cap?

So far we have only discused fighters, don't forget there 3 other score groups.

Right now the score system is fairly balanced, there also have been other incentives put in for landing, like the perk bounus, and the kill messages, plus not RTB greatly reduces your K/D.

Hitech

DoctorYO · « **Reply #56 on:** January 17, 2003, 08:42:33 AM »

Alll of you keep giving theorectical situations what if this style and so....

Style has nothing to do with it..

Style is biased...

this exp is unbiased..

Look If pilot A has 50 sorties and lands 20% of them 80% of the time he has no RTB time...

Pilot B also has 50 sorties except he lands 80% of the time....

So to sum it up in overall flight time guy B has 60% more flight time no matter what style plane where... they fly etc if they had a equal number of kills... (give me a 60% bonus to my KOT I bet its right up there some of these people who are trying to discredit this)

Now you say that it hurts K/D i agree with that.. But as stated earlier we are using a curve system... (for the chimp impaired maybe were not... no names TOdd.....)

And the curve system we have benefits KOT more than K/D... why, plain and simple vulches boosts it... thats how someone has a K/D of 1.5 but a KOT of 10+

No as far as self serving how is asking for a fair system self serving...

again pilot A get 5 kills pilot B gets 5 kills...

Pilot B rtb's Pilot A dies.... (there both turn and burners on base defense 4.0k from there base so there no confusion on style, stupidity etc...)

How is prorating the time hurting player A any more than what player B has waste time RTBing... you might argue K/D and thats a semi valid argument if we had a static scoring system as opposed to the dynamic curve we have.

as of current most people do not land there kills due to style, experience, bad luck etc...

Now if the majority is not landing then the median between average and High will be lower...

Now apply the same to KOT if the majority of the arena is base capture. Vulching will happen.. And the KOT curve the amount of kills to be Average wil be higher...

Now i dont primary vulch whos fault is that, mine... hence dismal KOT... but whatever style someone flys KOT should be constant.. If you going to return to base but died instead.. why should you get a bonus to your KOT scores...

I notice why you have this stat its obvious.. but with no safe guards in place its being exploited....

KOT promotes suicide tactics.. and hence in a earlier post gaming the game. Take away the suicide bonus to KOT and youll see less of it...

You say that eveyone wont fight then i disagree, this arena is so huge you can run if you want too.. but then your country gets crushed becuase your twiddling your thumbs dont come crying to me.. This has been proven already when the rooks were outnumbered anywhere from 3-5 to 1 ... Numbers rule the arena if you running your not fighting and your not helping your team.. theres a time to run and a time to fight...

Hitech its your game.. when the #'s we mismatched i offered a solution... with the perk bonus... Thats now implemented (thank you) and note the numbers in main...

I rest my case...

DoctorYO

Samiam · « **Reply #57 on:** January 17, 2003, 10:01:12 AM »

Incentives for RTB:

- Points for landing = 4x Points for dying
- Higher K/D
- Name in lights
- 1.25x Perk Point Multiplier

Incentives for risking neck to get a few extra kills:

- Higher K/T

There seems to be an awful lot of built in incentive promoting your prefered style Dr. YO. It impacts two ranking categories (even if you argue that the impact of a higher K/T is higher than the other two put together because of the competitive effects) AND there are incentives that apply to players who ignore rank. Not so for K/T. I would say you have what you want.

maxtor · « **Reply #58 on:** January 17, 2003, 10:34:44 AM »

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Originally posted by Samiam
Incentives for RTB:

- Points for landing = 4x Points for dying
- Higher K/D
- Name in lights
- 1.25x Perk Point Multiplier

Incentives for risking neck to get a few extra kills:

- Higher K/T

There seems to be an awful lot of built in incentive promoting your prefered style Dr. YO. It impacts two ranking categories (even if you argue that the impact of a higher K/T is higher than the other two put together because of the competitive effects) AND there are incentives that apply to players who ignore rank. Not so for K/T. I would say you have what you want.

You neglect to factor in the ability to land at an enemy base in your analysis. This distorts the impact of the K/T factor, as well as K/D (you can land damaged much more). Indeed the system does now quite severely penalize you for rtb to a friendly base.

Staying for more kills will then increase all your stats, not just K/T.

(pardon spelling)

eskimo2 · « **Reply #59 on:** January 17, 2003, 05:11:55 PM »

I think Hitech splained it very well.

K/T increases action per hour and agressiveness. To many, action per hour = maximum fun.

More weight on K/D and everyone runs. Runners make the game boring. Only those who are patient are rewarded.

Most importantly, there is no one sub category that is more competitive, or more important. Every individual player has issues that he finds more challanging than others, but the parts that he finds easy, many others find hard.

If you want to improve your overall ranking, it's best to focus on the subcategories that you are ranked worst at. Very often, making an improvement in those areas makes you rank worse in your other sub-cats, but your overall rank will still improve.

IMHO, the one thing that I would like to see change in how the ranker works, is for it to rank good players who are not "score consciense" better.
How can this be done? I'm not sure, but I'd like to see less of a spread in ranking between two players who basically perform the same, but one does just a few things that greatly boost his rank (Yes, I'm guilty).

eskimo