Thrilla you left one thing out

[eagl]

I paid full price since 1995.  I'm not sure what you consider "freeloading", but I've put hundreds of dollars into this game through subscriptions including many months where I paid but did not fly even one hour.  HTC doesn't owe me ANYTHING but I've paid my dues even if kids like you don't remember or realize that I volunteered my time for about 4 years of beta testing.

Skuzzy is right that complaints should be non-abusive, but every time someone asks HTC to fix a server problem, regardless of how their complaint is phrased, they get jumped on.  My point is that the cheerleading is just as immature as the more poorly stated complaints and a paying customer has the right to voice his/her dissatisfaction of the service provided.

You've noticed that I've pretty much quit asking HTC about features and gameplay since I stopped paying, although I have tried to submit a bug report or two, and I run a 7/24 H2H host that is used by both paying and non-paying players.

[Skuzzy]

eagl,..the problem with people trying to ask for a specific problem to be fixed, is they may completely miss the reason the problem is there.
Your example of "server problem", and a good one as it gets tossed about more than any other is one of those.

More often than not, no one, but someone here at HTC can know if the server is acting up or not.  When we find that to be true we openly admit there is a problem as it serves no purpose to do otherwise.

Ever time, without fail, when someone tells me to "fix the server", I go an check on it.  When I come back and there is no problem at the server and state so, I will get called a liar by at least one client.
Happens without fail, but does not stop me from trying to find the source of the problem.

I can state with confidence, most network problems are found on the Internet.  This is not to say the servers are perfect.  Like any computer equipment doing a job as complex as what our servers do, problems will occur from time to time.  And when they do, we address them and we let the players know we have done so.

I really have yet to detect someone getting flamed about posting a problem when the post is done with the proper tone or attitude.

[wetrat]

The reason people blame the server for their lag/warp is simple: They're ignorant.

[thrila]

Wow! A thread dedicated to me, never had this honour bestowed on me before.

I'm sorry eagl but when you mentioned you play and host h2h i assumed that you don't pay to play AH, i don't believe i've seen you in the MA either.  Believing you didn't pay for AH i found it amazing someone would complain for something they get for free.  I'm sorry if i offended you.

kids like you

Oh no!:eek:  My fragile ego has been shattered by this, the ultimate insult of all insults known to man.


Your post was highly critical of HTC and full of irony.  All of this "paying customer" malarky and you yourself are not a paying customer.

[eagl]

Skuzzy,

I guess my post was a reaction to the dozens of posts I've seen in multiple forums that slam anyone who might "make HTC mad" by complaining or "demanding" something.  Many of those "demands" seem to be related to pay-for-play services, but the cheerleaders go ahead and roast the complainers anyhow.  It's like a knee-jerk reaction - Gripe about something, get slammed because you might upset HT or Pyro.

My post was intended to say that I'm not sure you guys (HTC employees) are that fragile, and that people who pay for a service don't necessarily need to beg and plead, or as some suggest, kiss some butt to get what they feel is a problem addressed.

If it's a problem with the player's setup and not the server, or HTC is already looking into it, I'm supremely confident that HT and crew are able to separate the true issues from the whiny gripes without the BBS complaint police trying to hush players with problems.  The connection oddness seems widespread and there are certainly a lot of posts with topics like "server degraded, we all saw funny warps, people flying ack guns around, and then the server crashed and it was fine when it came back up", so it doesn't seem unreasonable for a customer to "demand" that it gets fixed somehow.  Whether that demand is phrased in a coherent and calm manner is a different subject than if the problem is real or imaginary, server or client based.  They just don't get any feedback either way except from the other players who try to mute any unflattering forms of feedback.

Thrila,  re-read my post in the other thread CAREFULLY.  In it, you will find that I am not "highly critical of HTC".  I'm highly critical of those who feel the need to mute the concerns of paying customers.  Skuzzy is 100% correct in noting that the complaints need to be made in an appropriate fashion, and I did not mean to imply that HTC is inappropriately dealing with complaints that arrive in the form of "this f**king whatever sux".  I am mildly suprised that the thread subject didn't merit an immediate removal from the forum, but I have given up trying to understand HTC's moderation policy

Look around for the word "demand" however, and you will find a number of players "demanding" a wide variety of fixes and getting slammed for phrasing their problem or issue in the form of a "demand" rather than a "request" or "plea for help".  My ONLY comment (comment, not criticism) on how HTC addresses these "demands" is that there does not seem to be any way (short of phoning them) to determine if any particular issue is being looked at.  A quick check through the bug reports forum shows that few bug reports ever get official HTC replies.  I know someone at HTC looks at these bug reports, but there is rarely even a hint as to whether or not it's being investigated, dropped as low priority, or determined to be a client-machine or connection issue.  Then when the players insistence on previously-reported bugs gets elevated, the player gets slammed without ever knowing if it's his own problem or something HTC is checking on.

That's a tough support problem all in itself, and while I suppose most players would prefer HT and crew to spend their time actually working on the game instead of posting in the forums, you can see how some frustrations will be taken out in here as a result of the lack of feedback.

My last bug report has gone around a week with no reply.  Since I no longer pay, I do not EXPECT anything, however the other paying players talking to themselves in the bug reports forum might be frustrated.  The threads on oddness in the tiger tank are still growing for example, as frustrated players vent without hearing anything back.  

At the last few cons, I've talked to HT and Pyro at length about various game issues and some of the most satisfying answers I got out of them were essentially "we know and we're not going to change it, sorry." or "wow that is odd, but we don't have time to spend on it because you're the only one having that problem."

That's all just my opinion, and a moderately worthless one at that since my only recent contributions to the game have been to run a 7/24 H2H free-for-all arena and to occasionally post a bug report.  Take it or leave it, I honestly appreciate Skuzzy taking the time to inject something into the discussion.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by wetrat
The reason people blame the server for their lag/warp is simple: They're ignorant.

Wetrat you might check into the problem a little more before you mouth off.

The issues players are primarily complaining about relate to server delays in sending text updates (ie kill messages), and damage updates (ie you've had your wing blown off). This usually happens just after a country has won and the server is about to reset the terrain, and seems to be happening in relation to some field captures.

Its important to point out that during this period of lag that plane position updates and Vox communications work fine.

For example, eagl could be flying, chasing an enemy, shooting it and seeing hit sprites, but the enemy might not take damage til 5 minutes later.

So on one hand we have traffic flowing smoothly across the internet to us (plane positions and vox communications), yet on the other we have server messages and damage updates not getting to us til several minutes later.

All this happening to 600 people around the globe.

You do the math.

[SOB]

Wouldn't you agree there's a nice middle ground between kissing HTC's bellybutton and throwing a hissy fit tho'?  It's really not that hard to compose a well though out post without injecting it with a load of sarcasm and spite.  I think it's got less to do with defending HTC's delicate sensibilities as it does with calling someone out for acting like a retard.


SOB

[eagl]

SOB,

You're correct, there is a middle ground just like there's a middle ground in online muting/moderation.  The boundaries of that are apparently not sufficiently defined, and motion within that middle ground is based on perceptions and emotions.  My point remains that the critique police are slamming restatements of unanswered questions when HTC is capable of doing it themselves.

Go through the bug reports forum.  There's a dozen or so players beating their brains against the wall in there over problems they see with the tiger, terrains, insta-death mysteries, and delayed damage and kills.  When those same problems get posted in here (sometimes calmly, sometimes not) after not being answered over there, they get jumped on by other players because they might be comitting the sin of making HTC angry.

I nearly blew my top after seeing the 20th repetition of "I drove my ubertank over a shrub and exploded!  I want my perkies back!", then I went back and tried to find any comment on the subject by HTC.  I couldn't find anything and I decided not to post anything regarding that discussion.  So where's the middle ground when the escalation of the post "temperature" keeps rising without any response except from other players?  Skuzzy has done a lot to help out there I think...

The best answer I've seen so far is to just pick up the phone and call HTC, since they're actually all a bunch of decent people working hard on a game.  Explaining the inflammatory posts doesn't excuse foul language, but the player vs. player flamage in the forums doesn't help either.  And that was what my post in the locked thread was all about.

[SOB]

Actually, the middle ground I'm talking about is defined by society.  Be polite and reasonable, and you'll get the same in return.  I can understand someone posting a question, even if it has been asked a million times, since they're probably posting it because it's new to them...although, one could try the search function first.  Too bad the search here isn't as good as Google for newsgroups.  I've haven't seen the bug forum though, I only go there to post when I have a problem.

On the separate issue of knowing HTCs position on issues...I'd like to know what they think about most of the common issues too.  Someone mentioned having a Q&A thingy...that'd be nice, but I can see how it'd be time consuming to do.


SOB

[hitech]

eagl: You have been a total jerk latly, either clean up your act , go away, or ill get rid of you, take your pick.

HiTech

[Dago]

Why bother eagl?  Its too much like beating your head on a wall.

The cheerleaders feel HT is too delicate, so they must gang to his defense.

It seems that the thread lock is getting used more lately, and in Antons case, didnt seem necessary to me.

No, I dont think we get many answers here actually.

Yes, I have called HTC and always had a decent discussion with whoever I had on the line.

No, I dont play AH near as much anymore, and for alot of reasons, most not really game related.

Yes, I am finding myself playing other online games now, the online gaming world is exploding and its fun to play new stuff.

dago

[eagl]

See ya