Author Topic: Post some feedback on Socialism  (Read 794 times)

Offline Ike 2K#

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2003, 05:59:38 PM »
WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, u get a car that is way worse than the AMC's Gremlin for 10 to 15 years??????? i bet ya the people who are processing the papers are only working once a month lol



(translation on the picture) That's it, boys! Shoddy goods won't fly!

« Last Edit: January 10, 2003, 06:09:17 PM by Ike 2K# »

Offline Ike 2K#

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2003, 06:19:33 PM »


translation............

Democracy means not only rights, it also means responsibilities, obligations, discipline.

Offline Ike 2K#

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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2003, 02:19:59 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ask Sweden. (Hint: 70% taxation of your income)


wow, no wonder the swedes have the new JAS Grippen fighter:D

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2003, 03:41:49 AM »
Milko, a question--

In a pure free-market economy, how do you prevent corporations from abusing their workers?   In 1800 (when this nation was very nearly a free market as the federal and state governments were quite weak), 14-hour workdays/6 days a week were the norm, 12 was the standard age to start a job (even younger was not uncommon), and job security was non-existant.  Job safety was thought of as unnecessary (if a guy gets hurt just fire him) and the environment (air/water quality/sanitation) in industrial cities tended to be worse than it is now.  While a market-driven economy is good from a purely economic standpoint (in other words looks good on paper), from a social standpoint it has a LOT of problems because corporations are not concerned with their workers, but with profitability.  

The problem with the free market is in this world there is no such thing as a truely free market, because corporations don't exist in a void.  Without regulation, corporate entities communicate with each other and even plot with each other in ways which aren't always for the good of society (price-fixing, blacklists, trusts, etc).  In other words, in the absence of the government regulating the corporations, they will start to regulate themselves (often to the detriment of the general populace) which is the end of the truly free market.  So at the very least you need some sort of regulation just to make sure that the free market STAYS free--yet such regulation is itself a perversion of a purely free market.  It's a catch-22.

I do not believe a purely free market can work.  Some controls are required.   However I would also say that in many cases, the current USA either goes too far or focuses on the wrong problems.  US government tends to make one poor half-baked law to fix a problem (which doesn't work), then a second poor law to fix the problems caused by the first, then a THIRD law to fix the problems made by the second, and so on, with government constantly getting more and more bloated and costly yet no more beneficial to the general populace.

Your thoughts?

J_A_B

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #34 on: January 11, 2003, 03:51:01 AM »
Finland has higher taxation than sweden.

According to recent OECD price comparison inside euro currency area, finland was 17% more expensive than germany and 37% more expensive than the cheapest mediterranean eurocountry.

This is directly because of huge taxation on everything. Prices here are 10% higher than US on average, which is a hell lot considering our average annual income is around $19k compared to average of $32k in the US.

Two comparisons: Radeon 9500 in US: $150 here €230
(Euro and $ are about the same value.)

Nissan Maxima 3.5 in US: $25k
Nissan Maxima 3.0 here:  €38k

Why am I still living here? lol.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2003, 04:07:50 AM by mrsid2 »

Offline Dowding

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Post some feedback on Socialism
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2003, 06:45:14 AM »
mrsid2 - but Finland has to import everything doesn't it?

I think it's an unsafe comparison to make between the US and Finland.

Besides, we had a similar situation in the UK (although not to that extent, ouch) - it turned out it had nothing to do with high taxes. It was the manufacturers (Ford, GM owned Vauxhall and a few others) artificially pegging prices at a value often as much as 40% above continent values. This was despite the fact that many of the cars were actually built at factories within the UK itself.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2003, 10:49:40 AM »
No... I think in the soviet union some people had even more luxury than most westerners.   There weren't many (nd they pretty much kept it a secret but they lived like hedonistic despots.
lazs

Offline mrsid2

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« Reply #37 on: January 11, 2003, 11:22:31 AM »
Dowding if I would buy a car from germany for $10k I would have to pay another $10k in taxes before I could register it here.

Just recently a finnish skijumper won the tour and he was awarded a brand new Audi as a present in Austria.

It's value is $82 000 here. He couldn't accept the present because he would have had to pay over $40 000 tax for the car if he wanted to register it in finland. How diddlyed up is that?

Offline Ike 2K#

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« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2003, 10:46:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
No... I think in the soviet union some people had even more luxury than most westerners.   There weren't many (nd they pretty much kept it a secret but they lived like hedonistic despots.
lazs


Gorbachev (General secretary of the USSR) lived in a dacha that is big and it even had an elevators?

Offline Ecliptik

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« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2003, 02:39:49 AM »
I think the venerable Winston Churchill said it best:

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries."

"Any man who is under 30, and is not a liberal, has not heart; and any man who is over 30, and is not a conservative, has no brains."

Offline miko2d

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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2003, 12:29:50 PM »
J_A_B: Milko, a question--

 JAB, first, please be assured that I mean no disrespect. You seem to be ignorant in this subject - economy and history - and thus come to it from a completely wrong perspective. That is perfectly fine and can be remedied by reading books found in any decent bookstore. I advise you to do so rather than rely on the boards. I'd advise to start with Hayek "The Fatal Conceit" and then read his supporters and opponents - Mises, Friedman, Adam Smith, Keynes(ians). I am afraid I cannot do justice to this topic, not being an economist and historian. So please take the following as just the roughest indication for future study.

In a pure free-market economy, how do you prevent corporations from abusing their workers?

 Corporations compere for labor same as they compete for any other resource. As capital-intensity of the production increases, every unit of labor and material produces more value - marginal utility of a labor unit increases. It makes sense to pay more for either and still be profitable.
 Saying that all labor would be minimum wage is the same as saying all raw materials would be zero cost (plus shipping and handling :)). The latter is patently absurd. It is not a good will of coirporations or desire to show off in front of socialist countries that causes increase in real wages of workers but the objective principles of the nature.

 A company hires a worker if his marginal utility exceeds/equals the marginal cost. The utility cannot be afected by legislature - so any attempt to set a limit on minimum wage would exclude some workers from labor pool, reduce production and increase price of the product to the customers. Since the worker accepts the however abysmal wage voluntarily as the best choice he has, by denying him that choice you cause him into even worse conditions.

In 1800 (when this nation was very nearly a free market as the federal and state governments were quite weak), 14-hour workdays/6 days a week were the norm, 12 was the standard age to start a job (even younger was not uncommon), and job security was non-existant.

 You are being anachronistic - judging the times according to 2002 standards and morals. The workers in 1800 were coming from the rural area where they had even worse conditions - not enough food to live and procreate - which explains why the population was not growing once all the available land was settled, even longer working day/week, work outside in cold/rain, etc, no job safety, no job security, no guarantee of selling the created product, etc.
 The capitalist used/risked his savings to provide a worker with a steady job sheltered from the elements in a heated building, often with some living space, not having to worry about many things a peasant does, etc.  It was a voluntary choice for the better, not worse for a worker. The times were tough and there was constant supply of desperate hungry people from the countryside willing to take minimum job that would provide sustenance. Socialists often forget that the workers were really human beings capable of deciding, not mindless cattle.

 The choice was for that 12-yar old to work or have him stay home and see his younger siblings die and probably himself.
 It's a lie that government regulations and or unions and rather than natural accumulation of capital, technical progress and decrease in fertility caused increase in real wages and shorter work day.

 Job safety was thought of as unnecessary (if a guy gets hurt just fire him)

 It started on the same principles and norms that existed in farming  in command-style societies for millenia without change - and then improved, along with society's standards of acceptable. It's credit to capitalism, not blame that the order of millenia was changed to the better. It just couldn't happen overnight.

and the environment (air/water quality/sanitation) in industrial cities tended to be worse than it is now.

 It was new stuff and people did not have enough experience with new methods and technology - which is a self-correcting problem. Also, pollution can be dealt with much better on a free-market principles that socialist ones. If your pollution affects someone's private property/body, you are in violation,  period. Lax environmental regulations are failure to protect private property rather than otherwise.

While a market-driven economy is good from a purely economic standpoint (in other words looks good on paper), from a social standpoint it has a LOT of problems because corporations are not concerned with their workers, but with profitability.

 That's the beauty of a system. It works to common good through competition and everyone pursuing private gain. There is a quite complex theoretical proof for that but compatition is essential and only known mechanism for the optimal allocation fo resources.

So at the very least you need some sort of regulation just to make sure that the free market STAYS free--yet such regulation is itself a perversion of a purely free market.  It's a catch-22.

 Not really. Any regulation that restricts competition - including labor competition - perverses free market. Any regulation that increases or does not affect the competition is compatible with a free market.

 Regards,
 miko
« Last Edit: January 13, 2003, 01:47:43 PM by miko2d »