Author Topic: Ja sind unsere Kinder in guten Händen. (Read 2096 times)

Airhead · « **Reply #90 on:** January 17, 2003, 06:36:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by AKIron

....he wasn't willing to endure a little ridicule for that shows just how deep his convictions.

Again, this is for argument sake, in reality he interrupted those also exercising their constitutional rights and was simply told to leave the class.

Any "ridicule" at all- regardless of how little- for exercising your rights, provided the ridicule is committed by authority figures charged with having knowledge of and protecting those rights, is too much entirely. Rights should be exercised without Government censure... Otherwise they are no longer rights.

Assuming he was told to stand outside during the recitation of the Pledge of Allegance, then allowed back into the classroom, whereas a normal punishment for being "disruptive" is a trip to the vice principal's office, one would have to believe he was being punished solely based upon his refusal to stand and say the Pledge of Allegence.

Whether we think the kid is a "little snot" or what is irrevelant- even "little snots" and (gasp) Liberals are protected by the Constitution, too.

SaburoS · « **Reply #91 on:** January 17, 2003, 10:22:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by midnight Target
Funny how people are all for America, its Constitution and Bill of Rights... until it gets uncomfortable.

No kidding. Seems we all favor Civil Rights. Where some of us differ is the right to exercise those rights.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #92 on:** January 17, 2003, 10:29:26 PM »

wish I could remember who to credit with this quote-

"The price of your freedom is the tolerance of the freedom of others"

Leslie · « **Reply #93 on:** January 18, 2003, 03:11:40 AM »

I see two possible motivating factors here:

1. The student was pushing the teacher's buttons, as kids will do in school. As an example, when I was going to junior high, we had a Civics teacher who was pretty tough. Staunch anti communist Civics teacher in the 7th grade. I had classes with this teacher up until the 10th grade...various subjects, mostly P.E. and homeroom. He was the school "enforcer."

By the time I got to 10th grade, my classmates and I had decided to have some fun with this teacher, in a friendly way, of course. This was a Christian school, and Communism was second only to the devil, as far as the evil on this world goes.

First thing we did was replace the American flag with the Russian hammer and sickle for the pledge of allegiance. I don't think he even noticed it 'til we started the pledge. He even allowed the commie flag to remain on the opposite side of the blackboard for a couple days...I think the principal questioned him about it, but he musta defended it (us) by saying it was part of the lesson plans. The next day, we (myself and three or four others) wore red hammer and sickle armbands, fabricated "Commie" brand construction paper cigarettes in a red box, and "smoked" them in class...even identified ourselves as the school Communist Society.

How did the teacher react to all this? He seemed to be humored by it....'til he sat down on the tacks in his chair. Even then, he didn't lose his cool. He was astute enough to smile about it, because he knew the whole thing for what it was...good natured. It was tailor made just for his benefit, and he knew it.

BTW...there was no paddling in this school. The most dreaded punishment was a 30 minute detention hall. As I recall, the toughest dude in the school was considered tough by us because he smoked. None of us got in any trouble whatsoever concerning the above. Probably because we weren't communists. We were 13.

2. Possibility on the part of the disruptive child's father to initiate a Civil Rights lawsuit against the school by using the child as a legal pawn to "test the waters" through provocative behavior. In other words, a scam initiated to either make money, gain notoriety, or intended to cause harm to traditional American values.

............................. ............................. ............................. ..................

Some have mentioned a violation of civil rights in this discussion. Please forgive my not understanding which civil rights have been violated. The Constitution has been mentioned, as well as the Bill of Rights. Which of these were violated?

Another question. Is there any weight to the student's rights issue on a constitutional level? Or is it more of a "proving ground" for testing limits by those who would undo our educational, and traditional belief system?

Thank you.

Les

AKIron · « **Reply #94 on:** January 18, 2003, 10:15:17 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by capt. apathy
wish I could remember who to credit with this quote-

"The price of your freedom is the tolerance of the freedom of others"

I tend to think that the price of freedom is eternal vigilance against those that would take it away. I'm sorry but tolerance in everything will result in you waking one day to wonder where your freedom went.

StSanta · « **Reply #95 on:** January 18, 2003, 11:12:11 AM »

AKIron, respecting the constitutional rights is hardly a slippery slope - uite the contrary.

If you start removing them little by little, then you're on that slope. And that is what's happening here.

I applaud this kid for refusing to participate in patriotic brain washing. They do the same thing in the DPRK, Iraq, former Soviet Union and so forth. You don't see it done in Scandinavia.

We're secure enough in our patriotism not to need to reaffirm it *every diddlying day*. That's a sign of insecurity.

Lover 1: Do you love me?"
Lover 2: "Yes.
Lover 1: "Do you love me now?"
Lover 2: "I said I love you. I meant it."
Lover 1: "YOU DON'T LOVE ME ANYMORE!"

Sad.

There are better ways of fostering patriotism than frcing people to pledge allegiance daily.

'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

AKIron · « **Reply #96 on:** January 18, 2003, 11:44:25 AM »

There IS a difference between standing up for something and standing up for the right to oppose the same thing. In America you have the right to do both and I support that. However, they ARE different things and many will do the latter while never doing the former but only ridicule those that do.

Pongo · « **Reply #97 on:** January 18, 2003, 11:56:00 AM »

Wow.
sending someone out in the hall is oppressing them?
His mom is one screwed up number.

Hortlund · « **Reply #98 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:08:41 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by StSanta
'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

wtf is that supposed to mean?

Hortlund · « **Reply #99 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:10:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pongo
His mom is one screwed up number.

My bet is his mom sees a potential lawsuit in here somewhere...

capt. apathy · « **Reply #100 on:** January 18, 2003, 12:37:56 PM »

Iron,
In this society, we are allowed to be different. In fact, that is one of the main reasons, this country was founded, to preserve the right to be different.

The point of the quote is that if you want the right to do whatever it is you want to do (so long as it doesn't stomp all over the rights of another). Then you have to tolerate (and even support) the fact that another mans idea of freedom may include things you don't particularly approve of, as long as it doesn't violate your rights or harm you. Just as he must tolerate your idea of freedom.

You may not approve of what this kid did (hell I agree with you on that). However, his refusal to say the pledge is his right. Freedom of speech is not only the right to say what you feel, but also to not say what you do not feel.

He has a right to be dissatisfied with our gov't, he has a right to make it known, he has a right to try to sway others to his way of thinking, he has a responsibility to stay in this country and try to change the things he doesn't like. Moreover, as an American you have the duty to stand up for and protect his whinny little ass.

AKIron · « **Reply #101 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:01:02 PM »

No argument on any of your points capt. apathy. The kid has the right to refuse. I have the right to call him dead weight. The teacher didn't have the right to kick him out of class solely for his refusal. The teacher did have the right to kick him out of class for being disruptive.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #102 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:48:33 PM »

Anyone who thinks that this teacher should be fired for what he did does not have a clear picture of what being an educator is like. He should be disciplined, not fired.

If this teacher was your child's teacher, you MAY have thought he had done a fantastic job. Yet one incident, and one student, has brought him to our attention. Saying he should be fired based on this one incident is much like saying that a child should be taken from thier parents because the parents forgot to close the baby gate once and their toddler fell down the stairs.

Being a teacher has more in common with being a parent than it does any regular job. All parents and teachers make lots of mistakes. If we took kids away from parents who made mistakes, and also took teachers away for making mistakes, there would be no parents, and no teachers.

A lot of folks think that teachers only have to teach a "subject". But we also really must teach children how to interact with others in a socially acceptable manner, how to be safe, how to be a citizen. We do teach morality. Many kids have not been taught, or somehow never learned, the difference between right and wrong. If teachers don't make an effort to address these issues, classes become chaotic and unteachable. All students' learning suffers.

In most jobs, there are 100, or maybe 1,000 ways to make mistakes. In education, there are millions of ways. Much like parenting.

There are students, espescially older students, who live for disruption. Their main focus in school is to cause disruption. These kids always seem to be on the edge. They know what will get them in trouble and they persistantly skate close to that line. The creative ones search for undefined ways to get attention. Very often, "exercising their rights" is really a test to see how big of a wave they can make. Are these kids going to push their teachers past their normal behavioral limits? You bet.

Parents, did you ever try to get any work done at home while your toddlers are raising a stink? Did you get your work done? Were you frustrated and pushed past you normal behavioral limits... to the point that you yelled at them.. or did something else that was inappropriate?
THAT'S what teaching CAN be like. For some it's seldom, for others it's constant.

Think about this the next time you think a teacher should be fired for not handling a situation as you THINK you would have.

eskimo

Airhead · « **Reply #103 on:** January 18, 2003, 01:57:24 PM »

eskimo, I was exaggerating when I said he deserved to be fired. In fact I think it speaks volumes about the snot's Mom that she would even demand such a thing- especially in light of the kid no longer being enrolled in that school. Unfortunately the way the legal climate and human nature is today and with all the new attorneys scrambling to make a buck I have no doubt there's been a line of attorneys forming outside her door since that story broke that is more rowdy, with more fighting and more arrests than we'll see in the line forming at the Oakland Colliseum for tomorrow's Raiders-Titans football game.

Oh, and I know just how obnoxious eighth graders can be- I was one for three years.

Leslie · « **Reply #104 on:** January 18, 2003, 07:30:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by StSanta
AKIron, respecting the constitutional rights is hardly a slippery slope - uite the contrary.

If you start removing them little by little, then you're on that slope. And that is what's happening here.

I applaud this kid for refusing to participate in patriotic brain washing. They do the same thing in the DPRK, Iraq, former Soviet Union and so forth. You don't see it done in Scandinavia.

We're secure enough in our patriotism not to need to reaffirm it *every diddlying day*. That's a sign of insecurity.

Lover 1: Do you love me?"
Lover 2: "Yes.
Lover 1: "Do you love me now?"
Lover 2: "I said I love you. I meant it."
Lover 1: "YOU DON'T LOVE ME ANYMORE!"

Sad.

There are better ways of fostering patriotism than frcing people to pledge allegiance daily.

'Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel'.

LOL, St. Santa. You must have moved, or gotten rid of the Somalies.

Les