Iraq, N. Korea kick Iran out of Axis of Evil

[Toad]

So, gates.....  do you think we should overlook their growing nuclear capability, given that they have such a sterling history and reputation for respect for human life..... as demonstrated by the treatment of their own citizenry..... and given their obvious love for the US, largest supplier of food aid to a nation enduring years of famine?

Ah... those stories of a NK gulag are all made up. Just like the Russian ones were. Ask Boroda. It's just a news ratings thing.

[whgates3]

my own opinion is that NK is a soverign nation, they've done nothing against us (well not since 1953 & that was us on their turf)& they only violated the nuclear nonproliferation treaty after we did.  given our gov't & media's propensity for exaggeration & lying who know whats really the case about NK famine & gulags (no doubt there are political prisoners in a totalitarian country, but there have never been pictures, so who knows how bad it really is? if so many staved in NK where are the satellite photos of mass graves? there were satellite photos of mass graves of less than 100 people from Bosnia-Hercegovina). it wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out that the NK nukes story is part of bush's scheme to push his $multibillion$ pie-in-the-sky missle defence shield or to wag-the-dog on domestic troubles

[Toad]

(well not since 1953 & that was us on their turf)

Say What? The Korean War started in 1950 when North Korean troops crossed the 38th parallel. In 1953 the Armistice was signed at Panmunjom. What sort of revisionist history are you proposing here?

And specifically what violation of the nuclear nonproliferation treaty are you attributing to the US doing first?

Guess the NK missile program is all propaganda too...... there's that little niggling missile shot over Japan in 1998 but hey, it was probably faked by the US.

Of course, the Japanese were so taken in that they froze the $1 billion they had committed to a project with South Korea, the United States and Europe to supply North Korea with two nuclear energy reactors. But, of course, it's not NK's fault the reactors are behind schedule so, blameless as they are, the need to violate the '94 agreement and restart the reactor.

Try Human Rights Watch on North Korea... unless you think they're a US propaganda organization as well.

If so, then you might try Amnesty International which has an interesting piece on the famine and people fleeing to China for food.

Lastly, put "north korea famine deaths" into Google and pick one of the hundreds of news sources there and do a little reading... oh, wait... they're all in cahoots with the Great Satan.

Since there's no famine, I guess you'll support the US cutting off food aid to them and sending it to where there is real need?

Or what?

[PSYKO]

lets just nuke every one! muhahahahahahahahahahahahahah a

[Nash]

"Or what?" - Toad

How about invading them?

[whgates3]

not that it means anything, but a google search for "north korea famine deaths" returns exactly two links...OK so maybe i should have exchanged the word 'turf' for 'neighborhood', but i'm not sure i could spell the latter word correctly...NK is a closed society so information available about it is bound to come from inaccurate sources: their gov't propganda, our gov't propganda & disidents...HRW & AI turn up pretty much the same info on NK: there is some starvation (dont know how much, but rats were eaten. some of those who fled NK for china wish they hadn't); political persecution exists (as it does in south korea), scale unknown; "indications of under-18s in government armed forces".  on the whole not worse than what you'd find at the same sites about some of our allies....if you look@a map you can see that for NK to test a missle of the caliber they posess (~2000 mile range) w/out the missle landing in an occupied area, the shot has to go over japan.

[Toad]

Nash,

I don't think we'll have to invade them.

I think pulling out the US troops immediately and cutting off all food aid to them (since there is obviously no famine.. ask gates) will totally solve the problem.

As long as we remain firm in our resolve not to send troops back once we pull them out.  

[GRUNHERZ]

whgates3:

Why do you liberals always have a tendency to discount the evils of a communist regime especially when it is in some current conflict with America?  It's nuts.

[Thrawn]

The word "evil" is stuipid.  I'm sure the Iraqis and the North Koreans think the US is evil.

It's an emotionally charged word, subjective, and is really crappy for honest discourse.

Plus, it makes me think of Darth Vader.

[Toad]

Gates,

Take out the quotes; you'll find more than you can read. Plenty from non-US sources. Lots from the UN and other charitable agencies that are trying to feed them.

Searched the web for north korea famine deaths.   Results 1 - 10 of about 8,100. Search took 0.19 seconds

North Korea famine deaths

These guys are generally accepted as apolitical.....

Médecins Sans Frontières

It's an interesting piece, "The Deadly Secrets of North Korea"
by Fiona Terry, Ph.D.

...Why, I wonder, do we express revulsion when reading of Stalin's gulag in the 1930s-60s; Mao's secret famine in the 1960s; or the killing fields of Pol Pot in the 1970s, yet show indifference at the plight of North Koreans today. We regret that our predecessors did not listen to the pleas of those who escaped the gulag, famine and killing fields; we chastise them for not believing that such horror could occur. But who is listening to the North Korean refugees in China now, in 2001, and who is willing to ensure their protection?

But then.... you're not listening are you?  

As to the missile, it's not the fact that they "had to shoot it somewhere".

From: CDISS, the Centre for Defence and International Security Studies, is an inter-disciplinary research centre based in the Department of Politics and International Relations at Lancaster University in the UK.

...On 31 August 1998, North Korea test fired its new Taepo Dong 1 two-stage Medium-Range Ballistic Missile (MRBM) into the Sea of Japan (for previous reporting, see North Korea 'Preparing to test Taepo Dong 1').

The test occurred at 1212 hours (local) (0312 GMT). The missile reportedly traveled 1,300 km / 806 miles, less than its assessed full range capability of 2,000 km/1,240 miles....

Equally as serious, we see the 31 August flight test as an important stepping stone to the Taepo Dong 2, a larger, follow-on, two-stage system whose estimated range of 6,000 km / 3,720 miles classifies it as an Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM), which would provide Pyongyang with a capability to target parts of the United States, such as the state of Alaska.

Yesterday's successful flight test of the Taepo Dong 1 missile (which uses a Nodong MRBM as its first stage and a Scud C Short-Range Ballistic Missile as its second stage) indicates that North Korea is steadily moving ahead with multistaging, which will hasten the appearance of the more powerful Taepo Dong 2...

It also mentions NK's probable willingness to export Taepo Dong 1's & 2's to the Middle East.

Now, while that apparently doesn't bother you, it does bother some people.

The world tried the idea of ignoring ruthless dictators that were arming as fast as they could. Didn't work out too well last time.

[Thrawn]

Here is what UNICEF and the W.H.O. says.

"SUMMARY
A series of natural disasters has exacerbated the humanitarian emergency in North Korea, which is facing its worst food shortage since 1997. United Nations agencies are now feeding one-third of the country's 23 million people.

As North Korea confronts its eighth straight year of food shortages due to drought, floods, crumbling infrastructure, and a depressed national economy, a recent report placed the country last among 110 developing nations in the area of child nutrition. The report was presented by UNICEF and the World Health Organization at the Global Consultation on Child and Adolescent Health and Development, held March 12-13 in Stockholm, Sweden. Based on a survey conducted from 1995 to 2000, the report found that 60 percent of North Korean children under age five suffer from some degree of malnutrition."

http://www.unicefusa.org/alert/emergency/nk/nk.html

[Toad]

GScholz:

North Korea was the entity that started the Korean war. The "soverign nation, they've done nothing against us (well not since 1953 & that was us on their turf" is more revisionist history.

They invaded another nation just as sovereign, South Korea, in 1950. South Korea was not "their turf". It drew a UN reaction as I'm sure you recall since the Soviet Union was boycotting the Security Council at the time.

Beyond that "not since 1953" is more balderdash. The axe murder of two US Army officers in 18 August 1976? The Pueblo incident? In 1969, North Korea shot down a Navy EC-121 "Willie Victor" in international airspace, killing more than 20 people aboard.

The US is responsible for Israel's ability to produce nukes?

Really?

Who built the Diamona reactor for the Israelis?  "Dimona's cooling circuits were built two to three times larger than necessary for the 26-megawatt reactor Dimona was supposed to be--proof that it had always been intended to make bomb quantities of plutonium... Technicians had built a plutonium extraction plant at the same site".

Ummm, that would be the FRENCH.

And who supplied the reactor's heavy water, essential to achieve a chain reaction?

Ummm, that would be NORWAY in 1959.

Then, in 1986, Francis Perrin, high commissioner of the French atomic energy agency from 1951 to 1970, was quoted in the press as saying that France and Israel had worked closely together for two years in the late 1950s to design an atom bomb.

[Udie]

Searched the web for North Korea Famine Deaths.   Results 1 - 10 of about 8,120. Search took 0.24 seconds.



 Damn Toad, that's not fair your internet connection is faster than mine. But I got 20 more links than you did  You'd think after all these years of you posting here that people would learn not to debate facts with you  Specialy when they are so wrong.

Nice work my man

[GRUNHERZ]

And lets not forget Apartheid South Africa, they apparently worked together with Israel to build and test nuclear weapons.

[weazel]

He's sending them more food and oil, next he will tell them "we're very, very sorry" for harrasing you about your nuk-u-lar weapons and declare victory.