Author Topic: P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?  (Read 331 times)

Offline scout

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« on: September 10, 2000, 02:59:00 AM »

Forever.

On trying my usual stunts to slow down & loose alt. before landing, I noticed the P51 acted weird in the rudder axis.

I tried an experiment:
This film shows climb from 0 - 10K on a continuos knifeedge with a climbrate between 2K - 3K.
With a little practice you can keep 3K foot per second continous I think.
 http://user.tninet.se/~zbg663q/TMP/film1.ahf

Can a real 51 do this ? I dont believe so, then again I haven't flown one.
Not wanting to scream pork, I'll think 'not kosher' will suffice.

On the plusside, the sidewind on landing felt real, should have windsocks ...


funked

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2000, 03:34:00 AM »
That's definitely screwy.  I'll try it out.

Offline juzz

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2000, 07:04:00 AM »
POOOOOOOOOOOOOOORK!!! I'm flying knife edge loops here!

Offline wells

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2000, 08:56:00 AM »
Yep, I noticed a problem there too, but couldn't get the film to work!

Almost all fighters can maintain altitude at 100 mph in a knife-edge...definitely too much airframe lift there!

Offline Vosper

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2000, 09:07:00 AM »
The zeke doesn't have too much body lift, at least not last night.  I did a knife edge pass along a runway and was slowly losing alt throughout the length of the runway.

Cheers

Offline Minotaur

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2000, 10:16:00 AM »
I tested quite a few of the fighters and I could get almost all them to do this.  The P-51 does it the easiest, the c205 and the P-38 hardly not at all.

What I notice is that the slower you go the more rudder authority you get.  Try starting this knife edge loop at 300 vice 175ias.  Start the manuver with a slightly nose up attitude, so that your speed will be dropping as you commence the manuver.

What I noticed is that at 300ias the rudder has little effect, which I more or less expect.  At slower speeds the rudder can  and has alot more effect.    

In fact some planes that I tried, like the 109G-10, absolutely crawl over the top.  Quite amazing really to watch out the six view.  I am still able to maintain a rudder only knife edge loop, correcting with counter aileron and some down elevator.  On the way down when speed picks up the rudder loses almost all of its control and you have to go wings level.

This I notice is also true for spin recovery.  If I recover from my spin early, before speed gets to high I can use the rudder effectively to counter the spin rotation.  If speed is higher then spin recover is alot more difficult, because the rudder has lost alot of authority.

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[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 09-10-2000).]

Offline scout

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2000, 10:18:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by juzz:
POOOOOOOOOOOOOOORK!!!

*Always* wanted to say that (sort of), to bad I was to timid to put it in the headline ...

With a newfound mean streak I'll give you the new 1.04 fm:

 

Very few propeller aircraft can *maintain altitude* in a knifeedge.
They need a large power / weight ratio.
Special aerobatic planes like Pitts et similar can (some russian designs).

And maybe the Convair XFY-1 above.


This is beyond maintaining altitude.

The AH B17 climbs with 1K +
The Typhoon climbs with a brisk 3K rate like the P51, haven't bothered to test more planes.

Offline scout

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2000, 10:34:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Minotaur:

What I notice is that the slower you go the more rudder authority you get.  Try starting this knife edge loop at 300 vice 175ias.  Start the manuver with a slightly nose up attitude, so that your speed will be dropping as you commence the manuver.

What I noticed is that at 300ias the rudder has little effect, which I more or less expect.  At slower speeds the rudder can  and has alot more effect.    

In fact some planes that I tried, like the 109G-10, absolutely crawl over the top.  Quite amazing really to watch out the six view.  I am still able to maintain a rudder only knife edge loop, correcting with counter aileron and some down elevator.  On the way down when speed picks up the rudder loses almost all of its control and you have to go wings level.


I noticed this too, you must fly slow for it to work (knifeedge climb).

Its not about rudder authority of course, rudder authority or not, the planes simply couldn't do this.

Offline juzz

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2000, 05:56:00 PM »
"The Typhoon climbs with a brisk 3K rate like the P51"

scout; look at the Typhoon's climb chart; it soon drops away to under 2500fpm. However, here's some reasons why it can climb like the P-51D(at low alt).

Typhoon: 11300lb, 2200hp, 277ft^2
P-51D: 10100lb, 1700hp, 233ft^2

Wingloading; P-51D 43.3lb/ft^2, Typh 40.7lb/ft^2
Powerloading; P-51D 5.9lb/hp, Typh 5.1lb/hp

Offline eagl

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2000, 06:02:00 PM »
The whole yaw setup seems to be badly broken.  Try this - In the 109F4, fly around and slowly input right rudder.  At some point (half rudder input for me), you will see some visual stuttering.  As the rudder input hits full deflection, the plane's response will hit what looks/feels like a rubber stopper in the modelling, and will then sort of bounce off the stop.  The feel is rather artificial there.

In addition to this, with full right rudder in the 109, pull the plane into a stall.  The plane will begin a LEFT spin entry.  I was unable to get the 109 to enter a right hand spin when the throttle was above about 50%.  This doesn't seem right, and again smacks of something in the yaw setup being broken.


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Offline easymo

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2000, 07:54:00 PM »
 OK, we jumped the gun. There is no way they are gonna leave it like this. The P47, is  about the only one that feels right. The UFO-D has been shipped back from Rozwell.

 They said something about patches.  Well, we do need some stinking patches.

funked

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2000, 08:30:00 PM »
OMG I'm agreeing with Easymo.  

Offline eagl

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2000, 08:48:00 PM »
You're joking about the P-47D right?

I tried to fly it online tonight, and it can make amazingly tight flat turns with full rudder and opposite aileron.  I timed it, and it actually seems to turn better in a flat turn than it does in a normal turn.

I can't tell what's wrong, whether the FM itself is horribly broken, or if the envelope has been expanded to ultra-easy with artificial limiters set to ultra-hyper-nocrashum, but imagic F-22 (the one with the 9-G flat rudder only turns) has a similiar flight model...

I am truly puzzled.  IMHO the performance problems sounded to me like there was too much induced drag (drag due to lift as AOA increases), but the whole feel of flight seems to have changed.  Being able to bounce the plane off of limiters, 2 full seconds for full elevator deflection transit time... And this is just what I noticed flying 2 planes for about 90 min.  I'm afraid to fly this version any more because I don't want to pick up any bad habits from this release.


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Offline easymo

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2000, 09:37:00 PM »
 I wouldnt know. I havent made a flat turn in 2 years.

Offline Mattibaby80

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P51, how long can it climb on a knifeedge ?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2000, 09:59:00 PM »
Whoops....hehe wrong topic.......

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[This message has been edited by Mattibaby80 (edited 09-10-2000).]