Author Topic: Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...  (Read 1544 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #15 on: January 21, 2003, 09:07:28 AM »
So Bug do we attack NK now or do we negotiate?

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2003, 09:33:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by thrila
Why did he invade Kuwait?  Because they were slant drilling Iraq's oilfields.  If anyone were to slant drill any other coutries oil fields i'm sure they would be pretty peeved too.


Yep just like all those nasty subhuman Polacks mistreaing the Volksdeutsche forced Hitler into WW2...   How unfair that such upsanding fellas like Hussein, Hitler and Stalin are always forced into invading their evil neighbors... :(

Offline wulfie

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2003, 09:45:57 AM »
A couple of things to remember...

1. Alot of people, including many (now dead) Iraqis (along with their extended Families) have wanted to kill S. Hussein since the day he came into any kind of real power. It's not 1% as easy as it sounds. When it comes to outsmarting would-be assassins he has alot of experience - and obviously some natural talent because he's been doing it successfully for so long.

'Slant drilling oil fields'? Well, at the time of the invasion of Kuwait that was not on the list of Iraqi 'reasons'. If it were such a justifiable provocation, why wasn't it mentioned? If it were really happening, why did so many Arab led Nations join the coalition vs. Iraq on the premise of 'defending a small Arab Brother from unjust and unprovoked invasion by a more powerful Arab Brother'? People seem to forget that Iraq was given no small number of warning, over a time period spanning a couple of months, to leave Kuwait.

2. North Korea is both more and less dangerous, and in very imporant ways.

2A. In terms of WMD, it is infinitely more monitorable. When the reactors begin to be employed for the production of weapons grade fissionables, the concerned Nations will know overnight. From that point onward, there is a well known rate of production when it comes to enough material to make a nuclear weapon. We're talking in terms of 1 weapon/x month(s) here. If and when production is actually begun, and has gone on for some time, expect bad things to happen.

2B. It is much more dangerous in terms of innocent lives threatened to attack N. Korea than it is to attack Iraq. Iraq's AD network, C3 network, etc. are very well documented/targeted/etc. If Iraq wants to take innocents down with itself in a 'blaze of glory' the main option is poorly guided and somewhat interceptable bio/chem armed missiles at Israel. N. Korea, using artillery, could effectively eliminate Seoul at the outset of any war (for those not aware, Seoul is in range of thousands of N. Korean artillery pieces).

In other words, you want to shut down Iraq *before* they get anywhere near N. Koreas capabilities. Mainly due to proliferation and 'region control' issues.

N. Korea has China as a next-door neighbor, and Russia as a close neighbor. Both of these Nations do not want N. Korean nuclear weapons leaving N. Korea in the hands of private parties. With the help of China, Russia, and Japan N. Korea could be very effectively isolated (if need be).

Iraq has much less predictable types as neighbors, and isn't 'blockadable by sea' along most of its borders. If Iraq developed a nuclear weapon there'd be almost no way for someone to stop it from being smuggled somewhere (and we wouldn't know when it was produced - unlike the case with N. Korea stated above).

Also, China and Russia are very dependent on trade with Japan for economic stability and prosperity. N. Korea knows it would be a province of China in about 1.5 weeks if it fired a WMD at Japan. Sadly, Iraq knows it would be the 'Hero of the Arab world' with many Arabs if it fired such a weapon at Israel and scored a hit. The major thing preventing this - even S. Hussein knows that if he ordered a WMD fired at Israel that Israel would kill him at all costs. Unafraid to commit attrocities and Unafraid of certain death are 2 different things entirely.

In short, N. Korea has to be handled more delicately. Iraq needs to be sorted out before it reaches a point where it has to be handled more delicately.

Mike/wulfie

p.s. The world is a dangerous and rough place. The British were brutal because you couldn't maintain an Empire any other way. Calling them 'evil' because of those actions is like calling an 18th century doctor 'incompetent' because he used leeches. It's not a fair judgement - that was the way things were done back then.

Offline Dowding

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2003, 10:03:45 AM »
Anyone here think that the US and UK won't go in before April? Seriously, now. It's inevitable. It's a 'done deal' as Jeb Bush would say. Before the US was persuaded to go the UN route, the determination to take Saddam down was there - the UN is a formality.

This is personified by Hans Blix himself. Empty shells do not constitute a material breech - I'm really interested to know exactly what the UK/US has on Saddam to warrant sending so many troops at this time. I want to see the material breech before any action is taken.

NK is a trickier proposition. A harder war, but the threat is greater in my opinion. Why not go there first? Pass a resolution about nuclear proliferation by Korea, get a coalition together including China maybe.

Now you have a large part of the British army on its way or standing in the desert. A third of our country's army FFS.

Meanwhile, amidst all this confusion you have decisions that have been very controversial being passed. The US missile defense shield project has been given the go ahead to upgrade the radar station at RAF Fylingdale. Passed, agreed, signed - as Tommy Cooper would say - 'just like that'. No parliamentary debate. Nothing.

Meanwhile, we have nutcases, who have spent time in Yemen etc coming to the UK as assylum seekers and then spitting their poison on national TV etc.

Toad - LaFollette had some good ideas on racial equality and governmental reforms, but that's not really what this thread is about. Good effort though. Could do better. Unless you want to elaborate in the direction I know you're going with that statement... :p
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Offline Rude

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2003, 10:04:22 AM »
We'll deal with NK when we are ready....and without the help from any of you, of that I'm certain. Well, maybe the Brits...I've always been partial to them....they have salt and have walked a tough path requiring tough decisions. The problem is that just like in America, too many of them have forgotten or never learned what it took by others to give them the choices they now enjoy.

Offline Dowding

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2003, 10:16:03 AM »
You make a good argument wulfie, and I see the logic behind most of it. It's going to be interesting how the US/UK deals with Korea.

Rude - did you make those sacrifices you talk so readily of?

I'm sick of hearing people allude to a parallel between the war in Iraq versus WW2 (for instance). Fresh shiny apples and rotten, dirty oranges.
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Offline Eagler

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2003, 10:32:55 AM »
I'd guess some ppl ( the libs of the time) were comparing WW2 to WW1 in the same light, eh DOwding?
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Offline Pongo

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2003, 11:18:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Eagler
I'd guess some ppl ( the libs of the time) were comparing WW2 to WW1 in the same light, eh DOwding?


That makes no sense.

Offline Rude

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2003, 11:47:14 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dowding
You make a good argument wulfie, and I see the logic behind most of it. It's going to be interesting how the US/UK deals with Korea.

Rude - did you make those sacrifices you talk so readily of?

I'm sick of hearing people allude to a parallel between the war in Iraq versus WW2 (for instance). Fresh shiny apples and rotten, dirty oranges.


My family lost life to uphold what we believe in....they paid for what we have as a nation today. I myself pay everyday in a different way. I watch my money support folks that bite the hand that feeds them. My point is this....if ya think we are pickin on poor old Saddaam or little o'l NK, then I would back off entirely and let you folks deal with it....oh wait, I forgot. The UN already dealt with this issue...17 resolutions not kept nor inforced.

You must expect us to lose another 3000 lives or worse before we recieve your approval to take action? I hope Bush runs that coward in Iraq into a hole so deep he won't know what hit him. When it's over, let's see how upset the Iraqi citizenship really is along with the other Arab leaders on the block.

And before I go, why don't you tell us how you became so wise as to know what Bush and his Administrations true intent is by taking this action. At least I'm secure enough to admit that I don't really know for sure....I can only support my president until he proves he doesn't deserve it.

I know this....Sadaam is a tyrant and a murderer....you want to align yourself with him, it wouldn't suprise me a bit.

You guys and your polyanna viewpoints are laughable....it's not a fair world nor is it just...not all solutions and methods have the luxury of being squeeky clean, feel good kinda choices.

The most amusing aspect of this type of thread is how you criticize, yet offer nothing as an alternative.

What would you do Dowding, as the American President?

Offline wulfie

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2003, 11:57:17 AM »
Dowding,

I think if war in Iraq is a 'forgone conclusion' it isn't because the U.S. is 'spoiling for war'.

The big problem with having any chance of a peaceful resolution of the situation is this - S. Hussein is a brutal dictator. His grip on power, and his security, is maintained by threats, fear, etc.

He can't back down. The moment he shows some weakness there's a good chance of one of his highest ranking subordinates having him killed ("He's weak, we've never seen him back down before have we? Join me we can kill him and seize control!", etc.).

That's why every rumor of him making arrangements 'for deportation to a neutral Nation' is immediately denounced by the Iraqi (and totally S. Hussein controlled government).

It's known he's been hoarding cash, diamonds, etc. for a long time - that's where alot of the $$$ generated thru 'U.N. sanctioned' oil sales has been going since '92 or so (and why so many people 'in the know' get supremely annoyed about media reports stating that the U.N. sanctions are responsible for starvation, infant mortality, etc. in Iraq - if S. Hussein gave a damn about his people the $$$ generating capability is there to feed them and get them medical treatment - every notice how kids are dying in Iraq from malnutrition every day...but S. Hussein's entourage always has 'this year's Mercedes-Benz' as the standard vehicle?). If his close associates discovered he had a plan to leave the country for some estate in a secure part of some 'neutral' Nation, some of his 'confidants' would take a crack at killing him for the cached $$$ alone.

Now I'll admit that the U.S. probably knows they have him backed into a corner. I.e. they know that the chance of him allowing the U.N. full access, etc. is almost zero (that would show weakness as well). But if he's being 'hoist on his own tyrannical petard' you can't blame the U.S. for it.

If it was a Nation of free individuals, with a truly representative government, he wouldn't have to fear for his life upon losing his power. Richard Nixon broke the rules in a major way, and he had to go. He stepped down. He was never afraid of a coup putting him in a shallow grave somewhere in Camp David.

Basically, some Senior Iraqi is going to have to take care of business for war to be averted...unless S. Hussein manages to set up a 'way out' and then decides to use it. He may not care - he's a little 'nutty' (NOT the same as foolish) in his old age.

If he backs down before the U.N., he'll be dead at the hands of his own guys inside of a year I think.

Conventional wisdom says the attack would have to start before the temperature gets too high in the region.

That's my take on it.

And don't worry about your guys being gone from the U.K. for too long. If and when the attack goes down it's going to be over very, very quickly. Allied C3I is 10x better (or more) than it was in '91. Iraqi C3I is both degraded and there's also been 9+ years of constant recon vs. the Iraqi military.

Mike/wulfie

Offline wulfie

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2003, 12:03:02 PM »
Dowding:

You guys want the missile defense shield active. Every Nation in Europe should want it active. 5 years before most of the potential 'nutball leaders' in 'Eurasia' have the ability to launch on the U.S. you guys will be within effective range.

Mike/wulfie

Offline Charon

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2003, 12:31:28 PM »
If you bother to remember, the first PR aim of the administration was to capitalize on the terrorist angle which failed - just like the first attempt to paint Kuwait as a fight to free a democratic regime from tyranny failed in the Gulf War. The PR “spin” fall back that worked in the polls the first time was WMD, and since you have basically the same team in power today making the decisions, it's not surprising to see the justification being used again. It’s a lot easier to let your countrymen die, and to kill others if you feel it’s because of a personal threat.

We probably realized after Sept 11 just how unstable our friendship is with Saudi Arabia, the real partner of terrorists. An Islamic revolution in Saudi Arabia would be devastating to the world economy. While mainly Europe gets its oil from Saudi Arabia, all the oil used in the world can be considered as coming from the same production pool. Remove production, the pool gets smaller and prices go up for all.

Iraq provides a buffer to this loss of oil. Ancillary benefits and justifications include:

1. Saddam is really a bad guy, and a running pain in the bellybutton for any administration dealing with tat region.
2. Iraqi oil is low sulfur, which helps with the coming diesel sulfur rules I believe.
3. There are infrastructure opportunities.
4. Multinational oil companies should benefit in the US and Western Europe, though France and Russia might lose out. However, both countries are working to become players in the eventuality of a change in power in Iraq.
5. The issue is "personal" for Bush.

Chemical and biological weapons are low tech and available, potentially, to just about any nation. Nuclear is much harder, but easier to contain with the border, surveillance and trade controls we have in place in Iraq. WMD do pose a threat, but the threat comes in the form of regional leverage as opposed to an attack on NY or Chicago, which has more emotional appeal at the polls. Unlike the NK leadership, you get the impression that Saddam wouldn’t use a WMD until Delta Force was blowing in the doors. He’s a survivor who didn’t get where he is today by doing dumb things. Kuwait wasn’t even so dumb, considering he apparently though it was outside our area of serious concern.

The question is, does ensuring the safe supply of oil for the continued survival of Western economies justify a proactive military action that will cost the lives of both allied and enemy forces and civilians (real, human lives, your son, for example). I'm not so sure it does right now, but my mind might change in the middle of a steep, worldwide depression. I suppose I'm just aggravated that it's PR as usual instead of an honest debate, but the honest debate is harder to spin. Oil isn't a factor? Right.


Charon

Offline StSanta

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2003, 01:08:30 PM »
One thing that's funny about WWII.

All of Europe except Britain experienced occupation. Britain experienced the Blitz.

Americans were safe at home, life going on as normal. Yet sometimes it seems as if the Americans understand the suffering during that time best, since they sent troops to Europe. I do not want to diminish the effort by those fighting men, but I need to state that they were soldiers, not civilians.

There's been two world wars fought here. I can say that's its now rooted itself deep in the cultural consciousness of Europeans. Perhaps it is why things aren't as black or white here as in the US. I don't know.

I'm thankful for the sacrifices done by the US during that time, but one must remember that just about everything was done to avert WWII - leniency to the extreme. When it did happen, everyone suffered.

Although WWII was tough on the US it was not near as tough as for Germans, Russians, Chinese and so forth.

Our collective psyche has 'been there, done that'. The US hasn't. It's a bit preposterous to suggest that the US knows more about the sufferings of war, since none in modern time has been fought on the US mainland.

One tires of 'we saved your arse, therefore you must agree with everything we do' type arguments. This is especially true since those who argue for a military solution are in a tough spot, since the same argument can be made about NK - then the former 'warmongers' would be 'ignorant doves allowing evil' if they dinnae agree to an attack on NK

Am beginning to feel old as of late. Mayhap I should stay away from this board for a bit.

Offline Ping

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2003, 01:16:52 PM »
StSanta, apparantly a small British isle was occupied :)

It was just a small Isle but still qualifies no? :D
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Offline Sabre

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2003, 01:17:46 PM »
Diplomacy, preparation for war, and war are all part of the same spectrum.  I believe to the core of my being that there would be no inspectors in Iraq today without the threat of action by President Bush and the active support of PM Blair and other Western leaders.  Without the credible threat of unilateral (read this as non-UN-sanctioned) military action by the US and other like-minded nations, the resolution re-instituting the inspections would not have been passed (unanimously, in case some have forgotten).  Without the hawkish posture of the Bush administration, Iraq might have simply ignored the resolution.  In other words, Bush is playing the diplomacy game, and doing it effectively.  You can choose to believe he is just a dumb bully, but I do not.

Take a look at how this is playing out.  They (Iraq) acknowledged Resolution 1444 (number?) reluctantly, believing the US and its allies would invade if they didn’t.  They began almost immediately to play the same old games to buy time for international resolve to disintegrate.  I offer the 12,000 page “declaration” as proof, along with Iraqi insistence that it was full and complete (hint: it wasn’t even close, and even Hans Blix, a man who’s past words and actions make it clear he’d rather believe Iraq’s assurances than find the truth, said it was 12,000 pages of doggie dung).  The inspectors report that Iraq is not truly cooperating, and that this must change.  The US and UK continue to work the diplomatic scene to build a “coalition of the willing”, while building that credible threat to the point that it’s clear we’re committed to a military solution if need be.  

Knowing the US and its allies (allies against Iraqi, not necessarily other traditional allies like France and Germany) see the 27 Jan report to the UN Sec. Council as a go/no-go decision point on material breach, Iraq suddenly softens their tone and pledge greater cooperation (again, playing same old game).  The discovery of the nuke program papers in Bahgdad and the chem.-weapon shells further softens Iraq defiance.  Why?  Because they know that if Blix and the IAE guy (sorry, can’t remember his name) report on 27 Jan that Iraq isn’t cooperating, then by the UN-agreed to resolution they will be in material breach.  Military action will be assured, because Iraq believes Bush and Blair when they say, “Enough is enough!”  Again, the tough talk by Bush and Blair, backed up by obvious preparations for war are forcing Iraq to cooperate.  “If you would have peace, be thou then prepared for war.”  Bush understands this.  Will it be enough to force Iraqi disarmament and (possible) a regime change?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  The danger of carrying the big stick is that you may have to use it.

On the other hand, a bunch of Arab neighbors of Iraq are pressuring Suddam to go into exile.  His own generals have probably already told him they can’t win a war with the West.  I don’t believe Suddam cares about the Iraqi people, but I do believe he cares about himself.  I believe he fears death.  There is hope he may yet capitulate if he believes it’s the only way to personally survive.  But he will not believe that unless he believes the US-led coalition is ready and willing to take him out by force…period.

N. Korea is a different story, and a different situation.  Anyone complaining that the US should be dealing with these two partners in the Axis of Evil in the same way is hopelessly naive regarding geopolitics and diplomacy.  One-size-fits-all international relations are impractical if not impossible.  It is possible and even practical to remain consistent in our stance on WMD proliferation while still being flexible in how we deal with rogue nations attempting to procure/proliferate them.  In closing, please remember that Suddam, not Bush, has not only sought to increase his WMD capability, but has used it against his own people and his neighbors.  Suddam, not Bush, has ruthlessly oppressed, tortured, murdered, and starved his own people and the people of neighboring countries.  The US has spent considerable resources in developing weapons that defeat the enemy with a minimum loss of non-combatant life, while Suddam has been doing the opposite.  I challenge anyone to argue that Suddam’s Iraq is only [barely] contained today because Bush senior and Bush junior (and of course other stout-hearted leaders from allied nations) were willing to lead, rather than simply dither and fret through the dark corridors of UN impotence.
Sabre
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