Author Topic: Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...  (Read 1508 times)

Offline Swoop

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2003, 02:09:55 PM »
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Originally posted by Ping
StSanta, apparantly a small British isle was occupied :)

It was just a small Isle but still qualifies no? :D



So was Guam.  Now quit splitting hairs.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2003, 02:12:19 PM by Swoop »

Offline straffo

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2003, 02:11:23 PM »
for your information LaFollette sound like "the Gayette" in french poor guy :D

Offline StSanta

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2003, 02:47:45 PM »
Sabre, the 1991 war came as a result of a UN resolution. I know the US dislikes the UN. I think part of the reason is because it's an alternative source of authority  - although the US has great influence, it doesn't have total influence. And why should the biggest baddest boy on the playground have to listen to a collection of lesser ones?

My point about Iraq/NK war was to merely point of the possible hypocricy involved. One can easily argue for a war against NK. one can easily argue for a war against Iraq. But it is also possible to argue against war *in both cases*. if one does that, then the 'you follow we lead, you're indecisive, we take action' comments are warranted.

And in the case where such comments are voiced one place and then the other sides arguments taken on the oterh - well. I I hope you see my point. Nothing naeive about it - just pointing out an argumentative trap, if you will.

Offline Eagler

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2003, 02:59:31 PM »
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Originally posted by StSanta
Sabre, the 1991 war came as a result of a UN resolution. I know the US dislikes the UN. I think part of the reason is because it's an alternative source of authority  - although the US has great influence, it doesn't have total influence.


please explain what the UN is without the US?

an indecisive, hand wringing paper tiger

And why should the biggest baddest boy on the playground have to listen to a collection of lesser ones?.

we are the biggest gooddest boy on the playground & don't have to listen to a collection of the lesser ones :)
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Offline straffo

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2003, 03:18:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Eagler
we are the biggest gooddest boy on the playground & don't have to listen to a collection of the lesser ones :)


atchaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


self assessment.

Offline Dowding

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2003, 03:26:19 PM »
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My family lost life to uphold what we believe in....they paid for what we have as a nation today.


And mine didn't? Does your sacrifice give you the right to make condescending remarks such as:

"The problem is that just like in America, too many of them have forgotten or never learned what it took by others to give them the choices they now enjoy."

...to anyone who might hold a contrary view to yours? Furthermore, doesn't it strike you as a little ridiculous to bask in the reflected glory of deceased relatives by taking that position?

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I myself pay everyday in a different way. I watch my money...


To go on to talk about the 'sacrifice' you make in same breath as talking about war-dead is frankly bordering on the comical. You make a sacrifice? By paying income tax? By using your VISA? Jesus, maybe you were right afterall - people have forgotten why people gave their lives so many years ago - and, ironically, you are a case in point.

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You must expect us to lose another 3000 lives or worse before we recieve your approval to take action?


Saddam Hussein had nothing, nada, to do with WTC. In 12 years he's had the time to cook something like that up -  but hasn't. Saudi Arabia had more to do with the WTC attack than Iraq. Yet who's our 'ally'?

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I know this....Sadaam is a tyrant and a murderer....you want to align yourself with him, it wouldn't suprise me a bit.


Oh purleaze.

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The most amusing aspect of this type of thread is how you criticize, yet offer nothing as an alternative.

What would you do Dowding, as the American President?


Like I would get to be American president even if I was American!

I've already detailed the alternative - keep the inspectors in Iraq, get tough with Korea.

And I'd definitely stop the tri-weekly 'I'm getting tired of you, Saddam - I'm impatient - time is running out' rhetoric that's been coming out of Washington in the last few weeks. As if sending carrier group upon carrier group doesn't show true intentions? Or tens of thousands of troops? The Iraqis know what's coming.
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Sabre

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2003, 03:31:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
Sabre, the 1991 war came as a result of a UN resolution. I know the US dislikes the UN. I think part of the reason is because it's an alternative source of authority  - although the US has great influence, it doesn't have total influence. And why should the biggest baddest boy on the playground have to listen to a collection of lesser ones?

My point about Iraq/NK war was to merely point of the possible hypocricy involved. One can easily argue for a war against NK. one can easily argue for a war against Iraq. But it is also possible to argue against war *in both cases*. if one does that, then the 'you follow we lead, you're indecisive, we take action' comments are warranted.

And in the case where such comments are voiced one place and then the other sides arguments taken on the oterh - well. I I hope you see my point. Nothing naeive about it - just pointing out an argumentative trap, if you will.


StSanta, I respectfully disagree.  The resolution you refer to that "authorized" the first Gulf War to was only passed after it was clear that the USA and allies were going to kick Iraq out of Kuwait, with or without UN approval.  Some parallels with our present situation, I'd say.  And no, I don't believe the USA dislikes the UN because it's an alternate source of authority.  Rather, it's the fact that the UN has become a forum for stalling and ineffectiveness, full of hypocracy and riddled through and through with anti-western bias.

I also disagree that there is hypocracy inherent on the USA's different approaches to dealing with North Korea and Iraq.  I have four children.  I try to be consistent in the values I hold them to, but how I achieve that differs from child to child.  So it goes with dealing with other people...and other nations.  The message to both countries is the same.  WMD proliferation is bad and you should stick by the promises you've made to stop doing this.  The geopolitcal situation, internally and regionally, along with where each of these two contries is at in the WMD development timeline dictates a different approach.  However, I welcome the reasoned discourse you bring to the discussion.
Sabre
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Offline Dowding

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2003, 03:33:47 PM »
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You guys want the missile defense shield active. Every Nation in Europe should want it active. 5 years before most of the potential 'nutball leaders' in 'Eurasia' have the ability to launch on the U.S. you guys will be within effective range.


You are unusually misinformed, wulfie. The shield does not protect the UK. There are no plans for it to protect the UK or any other part of Europe, in the future. It makes the UK a target for a pre-emptive strike, simply because we have a key part of a system that offers no benefit to us, on our soil.

Or maybe that's the idea? Use the UK to 'draw them out', thus giving the US valuable minutes to launch a retaliatory strike.

It makes me wonder what kind of deal was done over this... I have no qualms over mutual defense. We all need that. But this just isn't it.

Perhaps the US will donate one of their older carriers in return? :)
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Rude

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2003, 03:39:20 PM »
Santa....

Ya think it's possible that this time around, appeasment may not be the best solution?

And regarding NK....we will go there next. Many here would prefer to see Bush go down rather than Sadaam....he has made a wise choice to fight our fights on our terms and no one else's.

I believe, not specific to all who post here, but in general, Europeans suffer from Empire Envy.

I personally believe all of this must take place and I believe as well, that it will get much worse....anti- Americanism will flourish in the years to come and collectively, Europe will move against the US and specifically Isreal....anti-semitism is on the rise in Europe as well as the US.

Not a good time in history to worship yourself.

Offline straffo

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2003, 03:53:02 PM »
Rude why do you and other use  those "anti" word when someone disagree with you ?

When I'm against actual Isrealy(American) policy I become an anti-sémite(anti-American) ?

Offline Thrawn

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2003, 04:02:35 PM »
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Originally posted by Rude
And regarding NK....we will go there next.


What are next weeks lotto numbers please.  


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Many here would prefer to see Bush go down rather than Sadaam....he has made a wise choice to fight our fights on our terms and no one else's.


Oh roadkill.  Is that why he capitulated to France and Russia?  If he was fighting the fight on his terms, then the security council would have adopted the US plan for a resolution.


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I believe, not specific to all who post here, but in general, Europeans suffer from Empire Envy.


What crap.  Oh yes, eveyone is envious of the US.  I believe that Americans have some sort of sad desire to feel like everyone envies them.  Some sort of justification.  "See Iraq, ya they envy us."  "See the terrorists, ya they envy us to."  "See Europe, more envy there."  What a poor explantion for anti-americanism.  


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I personally believe all of this must take place and I believe as well, that it will get much worse....anti- Americanism will flourish in the years to


Well gee, maybe if Bush wasn't such a unilateral potato peeler, this wouldn't happen.  Maybe if he didn't try to run roughshod over other countries, other countries wouldn't be as anti-american.  

Anti-americanism has been growing all over the world since Bush got into power.  Now either the rest of the world has suddenly become deranged (must be all that pent up envy being released :rolleyes:) or Bush is moron and his foreign policy is toejam.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2003, 06:06:53 PM by Thrawn »

Offline Rude

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2003, 05:01:18 PM »
Thrawn.......

I understand this is tough for you to swallow, but your opinion of things is just plain wrong, while mine is precisely correct.

Sucks don't it?

Straffo....

My use of the word anti, had nothing to do with anyone agreeing or disagreeing with me....it's just a word describing a sentiment which exists in this world of ours. Don't take it personally as it was not meant that way:)

Offline Thrawn

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2003, 05:08:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rude
Thrawn.......

I understand this is tough for you to swallow, but your opinion of things is just plain wrong, while mine is precisely correct.

Sucks don't it?


Classic Rudeism.  :D

Offline Curval

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2003, 05:55:17 PM »
Well argued Thrawn.  Don't agree with everything you wrote, but you sure wrote it purdy.:)
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Offline wulfie

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Bin Laden wanted to kill Saddam during last Gulf War...
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2003, 05:57:09 PM »
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Originally posted by Dowding
You are unusually misinformed, wulfie.


I don't know about the 'unusually' part, but in this case...you're it! :)

The missile defense program is a very wide one. The part of it that primarily makes the (irresponsible) media reports is the part that would protect the U.S.A. from an ICBM launched from China.

I say irresponsible because the U.S. based media somehow overlooked the fact that the Russians began secret, and totally 'illegal' (per signed treaties) work on missile defense systems back in the mid-1970s. There were radar arrays detected in/around Moscow that were purpose built for the direction of anti-ICBM defenses. So calling the U.S. missile defense plan 'destabalizing' wasn't a really accurate thing to say.

Anyways - back to the point - the missile defense program in it's entirety has many different components. One of the most important is the 'theater' missile defense shield. This part is one of the most important as it's designed to prevent a medium range missile from being used vs. friendly troops operating away from the U.S.A., or - in your case - a medium range missile fired from one Nation to another nearby Nation.

This is why alot of the tests have involved Aegis-class cruisers. One of the main ideas behind theater-level defense is to base it on the very powerful (and presently very underutilized) Aegis equipped warships. There have been briefings and concept write-ups involving the positioning of such ships in the gulf of Arabia to protect friendly troops involved in combat in the middle East and/or to protect Israel. The same briefings detail positioning such warships in the English channel and/or the Adriatic Sea to protect large areas of Europe from mid-range missiles.

This is why China (due to Taiwan) is so pissed by the idea. They already hate the fact that the U.S. keeps some Aegis equipped warships very near Taiwan (guranteeing massive Chinese air losses in case of an attempted invasion). But when these warships can act as part of a theater missile defense system the medium range missiles targeted on Taiwan are no longer a 'sure bet'.

The whole point of the program as a whole is to prevent the 'rogue' use of missile delivered WMD by anyone. Think about it - 2 nuclear weapons targeted on 'the right 2' major cities in Europe would have a truly devastating effect on the world economy. Just defending the U.S.A. would almost be pointless - especially when you can cover almost anywhere with 'theater defenses' at a very small overall increase in cost.

Not to mention the fact that the 'annoying/clueless Cowboy attitude' of the U.S.A. (which can be naive at times for certain) - i.e. "We'll come fix 600 years of problems in a year or two becuase we know what's *right*" works both ways. The American public (for the most part, barring Jane Fonda and certain other groups) sees the world very much in terms of 'good guys' and 'bad guys'. Civilians in the U.K. and Europe are very much in the 'good guys' category. Can you imagine the public outcry in the U.S.A. if it was determined that the U.S.A. could have protected the U.K. from a rogue ICBM and didn't?

Warship deployable theater defense plays directly to 'our' strengths. This is the first time in history where 'the good guys' (U.S., U.K., N.A.T.O., Russia - i.e. predictable major powers with beneficial relationships) have total control of the sea. Think about that - for the previous 400 years no one group of Nations could basically operate 'unchallanged' at sea. That's not the case today. No Nation could keep 'us' (i.e. U.S., U.K., N.A.T.O., Russia) from deploying such a defense - anywhere in the world - for more than 2 months I'd say. And by 2 months I'm saying 'deploy into the most hotly contested areas', i.e. off the coast of India.

We couldn't let the U.K. get nuked. The loss in good beer and people to keep Germany from dominating the world cup would be unbearable. :)

Mike/wulfie