Affirmative Action

[capt. apathy]

not funny.  don't give them any ideas

[NUKE]

what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

Give Sharpton ( and all minority candidates) states and votes in the elections......it's only fair. We have to even the playing field in our elections.

[NUKE]

We need to have a proportionate number of minority Presidents in the US. I propose we give all minority candidates 20%  of the vote up front. It's only fair.

[lazs2]

mt quoted...

A 1989 study by Phyllis Rosser, The SAT Gender Gap: Identifying the Causes, found that the vast majority of questions exhibiting large gender differences in correct answer rates are biased in favor of males, despite females' superior academic performance. Rosser found that females generally did better on questions about relationships, aesthetics and the humanities, while males did better on questions about sports, the physical sciences and business.

This conclusion is supported by an earlier study by ETS researcher Carol Dwyer, who provides some historical perspective on the gender gap in her 1976 report. She notes that it is common knowledge among test-makers that gender differences can be manipulated by simply selecting different test items. Dwyer cites as an example the fact that, for the first several years the SAT was offered, males scored higher than females on the Math section but females achieved higher scores on the Verbal section. ETS policy-makers determined that the Verbal test needed to be "balanced" more in favor of males, and added questions pertaining to politics, business and sports to the Verbal portion. Since that time, males have outscored females on both the Math and Verbal sections. Dwyer notes that no similar effort has been made to "balance" the Math section, and concludes that, "It could be done, but it has not been, and I believe that probably an unconscious form of sexism underlies this pattern. When females show the superior performance, 'balancing' is required; when males show the superior performance, no adjustments are necessary."

Multiple-choice format
A joint study by the Educational Testing Service and the College Board concluded that the multiple-choice format itself is biased against women. The study examined a variety of question types on Advanced Placement tests (like the SAT, made by ETS for the College Board and administered to college bound seniors) and found that the gender gap narrowed or disappeared on all types of questions (e.g. short answer, essay, constructed response) except multiple choice. Similar results were also found with the California Bar Exam and the SAT's English Composition Test with Essay. The researchers conclude, "The better relative performance of females on constructed-response tests has important implications for high-stakes standardized testing... If both types of tests measure important education outcomes, equity concerns would dictate a mix of the two types of assessment instruments."

This is not news to me or anyone who has lived long enough to observe people..   I have allways said that women (and liberals) have better communications skills while men have better mechanical skills.   multiple choice proves men are better at decision making.    I don't want to drive across a bridge that was built by someone with "good communication skills"   I want the little yellow bugger with the good math skills to have built it.   Perhaps I would rather have women teach my children.   There are of course, allways exceptions to rules and we should be able to accept the fact that there are exceptions but... we should stop trying to force square pegs into round holes...  No amount of communications skills will make that work.

Gender, race... physical differences translate into.... differences.  Not better or worse as people but different... Not being able to accept this is the root of the resentment.  
lazs

[midnight Target]

Interesting article Iron, especially since it is the Regents of the UC system who are leading the way regarding the elimination of the SAT. did you note this in the conclusion?

The honest and direct way to achieve diversity is by considering an applicant's membership in an underrepresented group to be a "plus" in the admissions process. Eliminating admissions-test requirements as a form of covert affirmative action is not sound policy. Instead, we should focus our efforts on eliminating the legal obstacles to affirmative action programs.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Interesting article Iron, especially since it is the Regents of the UC system who are leading the way regarding the elimination of the SAT. did you note this in the conclusion?

MT, the focus of my comments in this thread has not been on whether or not AA is justified but on whether standardized testing, SAT in this case, is racially biased.

I see the disparity in scores between races/cultures/economic background as a problem not with the tests but rather with the quality of education k-12. This must be fixed. Creating a dual standard will only perpetuate racism and hard feelings between races.

[midnight Target]

You know, we are saying the same thing here really.

The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.

The point is that the disparity in test scores leads to a disparity in opportunity and some races are negatively affected.

[AKIron]

Originally posted by midnight Target
You know, we are saying the same thing here really.

The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.

The point is that the disparity in test scores leads to a disparity in opportunity and some races are negatively affected.

I agree that there is disparity and that we must look hard for the cause and do whatever we can to fix the problem. It's certainly no simple or easy job but the future of our nation depends upon it.

[miko2d]

midnight Target: The tests are racially biased .. possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.

 I want to correct you on a technical issue - or rather on using the proper terms. A test is called biased against some group if it tends to underpredict future performance of that group.

 Like, if blacks entering the college with lower SATs achieved the same G.P.A.s and graduaton rates as whites, then SATs would be biased against blacks.

 Since the lower G.P.S.s and graduation rates of blacks pretty accurately correspond to the lower SAT of the enrolees, we can confidently state that SATs are not biased but are accurate predictors of black performance in college.
 Same is true for other tests on relevant subject.

 For instance - examination in English language will be biased against chinese physics students since they will get lower grades than whites but the same or better G.P.A. and graduation rates. But the knowlege of English is clearly not very relevant to abilities in physics.

 Of course accuracy of the test does not say anything about the cause of the difference in scores - it may well be real discrimination at all stages, etc.


 possibly due to a disparity in K-12 education among the races in America.... which may be due to location, or culture, or ... whatever.

"Black students from families with incomes above $70,000 a year score lower on the SAT than white students from families with incomes of less than $10,000 a year..."
 -- Shelby Steele, an African-American scholar.
 Ph.D. in English from the University of Utah, an M.A. in sociology from Southern Illinois University, and a B.A. in political science from Coe College, Cedar Rapids, Iowa.)

 Sounds more like "whatever"...

 miko