Author Topic: Evolution is a myth  (Read 4076 times)

Offline lord dolf vader

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #150 on: January 25, 2003, 07:13:02 PM »
they figgured the bee flying thing out.

next undeniable proof of god?


and yeager its not a endless circle of reincarnation. you get off when you are done learning. understandable from a christian.

Offline Shuckins

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #151 on: January 25, 2003, 07:14:27 PM »
Miko

When King David had a young son to die, he lamented "He cannot come to me, but I can go to him."  If he did not believe in an afterlife I do not believe he would have made that statement.

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Offline AKIron

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #152 on: January 25, 2003, 07:17:46 PM »
Miko, I can't feel good about about my religion or anything else for that matter if I don't believe that it is true. You are correct, I do not want to decieve myself, even if it gives me comfort. Still, for pratical purposes, I exist and so does the universe.

The fact, and it is a fact as far as I'm concened, that I question the creation of my existence justifies my belief in a creator and the benevolence of that creator in bestowing upon me eternal life.

Concerning fear of death. I'm not currently, nor have I in the past, experienced fear of death. It does however make me sorrowful to contemplate death as oblivion.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Sharkm8

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #153 on: January 25, 2003, 11:29:12 PM »
Holes in evolution

     First things first, Sandman you need to get facts straight before you post something, light was created first according to the bible, so that would mean the sun was created on the first day before plants.  

      I am not taking a religious point on this one, i am Christian, but i have no idea how things came to be, but i do know evolution has too many holes to be considered a fail proof explanation.  the information im using comes from a book that supports evolution in its entirety, and i can use it to point out some basic problems.

       As for the Origin of Species, what constitutes a species?  A wolf and a St bernard, both are dogs right? Wrong, wolves according to scientist are cannis lupis, and St Bernards are Cannis familiaris.  So does that mean St bernards evolved from something different than wolves.  Or tigers and Lions, they also are not the same species but are supposed to have evolved from the same origins.

     
         Also where are all the transitional fossil forms for other animals, yes u are considering the four winged dinosaur as one, but shouldnt their be hundreds of transitional fossils, i think for scientist to say that fossils prove evolution they need to show more of these transitions than just a few feathered dinosaurs.

      And for how old the earth is, there is a sort of paradox in the way scientist figure that.  For example, Scientist say that a trilobite is x million years old because it was found in sediment from that period, but how do they know the sediment was that old, because they found a trilobite in it, but how do they know how old the trilobite is, because it was in sediment that old, but how do they know the sediment is that old, because theres a trilobite in it, and so on and son on.  It circular thinking.  And even the people at Purdue Universities carbon dating facilities would not trust carbon dating as absolute fact.

Sandman i would just like for you to explain some of the supposed evidence for evolution.  I am open to the fact that it is still a possibility, but there is a lot more evidence needed before i will believe it as fact.

Offline Sandman

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #154 on: January 26, 2003, 12:41:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sharkm8
First things first, Sandman you need to get facts straight before you post something, light was created first according to the bible, so that would mean the sun was created on the first day before plants.    


According to Genesis, the sun wasn't created until the fourth day...

Quote

14 Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years; 15 and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth"; and it was so. 16 Then God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also. 17 God set them in the firmament of the heavens to give light on the earth, 18 and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 So the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


It doesn't make much sense... On the first day, day and night is created, but the sun and moon doesn't show up until the fourth... at least according to the King James version.

Everything else that you're asking for can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/ - have to give credit to Santa for finding it...
sand

Offline Yeager

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2003, 01:46:48 AM »
its not a endless circle of reincarnation. you get off when you are done learning.
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I recall this now.  Question is: Then what?  I mean, once the spirit has learned everything and no longer needs to be recycled.  What happens next?
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Offline Hortlund

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2003, 03:43:02 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Everything else that you're asking for can be found here: http://www.talkorigins.org/ - have to give credit to Santa for finding it...


Or you could look at http://www.trueorigins.org if you want

So you are reduced to quoting web pages now sandman? Impressive...

Offline StSanta

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #157 on: January 26, 2003, 09:53:31 AM »
Holes in evolution? Will address those points.

As for the Origin of Species, what constitutes a species? A wolf and a St bernard, both are dogs right? Wrong, wolves according to scientist are cannis lupis, and St Bernards are Cannis familiaris. So does that mean St bernards evolved from something different than wolves. Or tigers and Lions, they also are not the same species but are supposed to have evolved from the same origins.

In biology, a species is defined as a taxonomic group whose members can interbreed.
       
Also where are all the transitional fossil forms for other animals, yes u are considering the four winged dinosaur as one, but shouldnt their be hundreds of transitional fossils, i think for scientist to say that fossils prove evolution they need to show more of these transitions than just a few feathered dinosaurs.

An understanding of the process of fossilization must be had before the problem with transitional fossils (or the low numbers thereof) can be understood.

There's something called stratigraphic discontinuity. What this means is that fossil-bearing strata aren't continous. Thes e strata are used for time dating, and one strata is often found right next to a strata of a different age. Often there are long time breaks missing. This is a quote:

'For instance, the Aalenian (mid-Jurassic) has shown no known tetrapod fossils anywhere in the world, and other stratigraphic stages in the Carboniferous, Jurassic, and Cretaceous have produced only a few mangled tetrapods. Most other strata have produced at least one fossil from between 50% and 100% of the vertebrate families that we know had already arisen by then (Benton, 1989) -- so the vertebrate record at the family level is only about 75% complete, and much less complete at the genus or species level. (One study estimated that we may have fossils from as little as 3% of the species that existed in the Eocene!) This, obviously, is the major reason for a break in a general lineage. To further complicate the picture, certain types of animals tend not to get fossilized -- terrestrial animals, small animals, fragile animals, and forest-dwellers are worst. And finally, fossils from very early times just don't survive the passage of eons very well, what with all the folding, crushing, and melting that goes on. Due to these facts of life and death, there will always be some major breaks in the fossil record.'

That's just the evolution within a species. Speciation is much harder to document. You ahve to realize that for something to be eligible to be used as evidence, it has to qualify as such using scientific methods. You'll need an exceptionally complete strata with many dead animals while there is *constant* and fast sedimentation. There are some sites where this is approximated (Clar's Fork) but not many.

Note that fossils separated by more than about a hundred thousand years cannot show anything about how a species arose. Think about it: there could have been a smooth transition, or the species could have appeared suddenly, but either way, if there aren't enough fossils, we can't tell which way it happened.

Then there is the issue of finding them. it's hard enough to find a Tyrranousaurus Rex. Only Europe and North America has been adequately surveyed, and there hasn't really been so much exploring even here. I'll quote again.

'The second reason for gaps is that most fossils undoubtedly have not been found. Only two continents, Europe and North America, have been adequately surveyed for fossil-bearing strata. As the other continents are slowly surveyed, many formerly mysterious gaps are being filled (e.g., the long-missing rodent/lagomorph ancestors were recently found in Asia). Of course, even in known strata, the fossils may not be uncovered unless a roadcut or quarry is built (this is how we got most of our North American Devonian fish fossils), and may not be collected unless some truly dedicated researcher spends a long, nasty chunk of time out in the sun, and an even longer time in the lab sorting and analyzing the fossils. Here's one description of the work involved in finding early mammal fossils: "To be a successful sorter demands a rare combination of attributes: acute observation allied with the anatomical knowledge to recognise the mammalian teeth, even if they are broken or abraded, has to be combined with the enthusiasm and intellectual drive to keep at the boring and soul-destroying task of examining tens of thousands of unwanted fish teeth to eventually pick out the rare mammalian tooth. On an average one mammalian tooth is found per 200 kg of bone-bed." (Kermack, 1984.)

Documenting a species-to-species transition is particularly grueling, as it requires collection and analysis of hundreds of specimens. Typically we must wait for some paleontologist to take it on the job of studying a certain taxon in a certain site in detail. Almost nobody did this sort of work before the mid-1970's, and even now only a small subset of researchers do it. For example, Phillip Gingerich was one of the first scientists to study species-species transitions, and it took him ten years to produce the first detailed studies of just two lineages (see part 2, primates and condylarths). In a (later) 1980 paper he said: "the detailed species level evolutionary patterns discussed here represent only six genera in an early Wasatchian fauna containing approximately 50 or more mammalian genera, most of which remain to be analyzed."'

Then you have to get the word out. There *are* transitional fossils out there, but amongst Creationists it is common practise to just ignore that. Often it's the scientists fault for having it in highly technical reviews that are inaccessible for the general public. But it's there. I'll use just a few examples:

Transition from primitive jawless fish to sharks, skates, and rays
Late Silurian -- first little simple shark-like denticles.
Early Devonian -- first recognizable shark teeth, clearly derived from scales.
GAP: Note that these first, very very old traces of shark-like animals are so fragmentary that we can't get much detailed information. So, we don't know which jawless fish was the actual ancestor of early sharks.

Cladoselache (late Devonian) -- Magnificent early shark fossils, found in Cleveland roadcuts during the construction of the U.S. interstate highways. Probably not directly ancestral to sharks, but gives a remarkable picture of general early shark anatomy, down to the muscle fibers!
Tristychius & similar hybodonts (early Mississippian) -- Primitive proto-sharks with broad-based but otherwise shark-like fins.
Ctenacanthus & similar ctenacanthids (late Devonian) -- Primitive, slow sharks with broad-based shark-like fins & fin spines. Probably ancestral to all modern sharks, skates, and rays. Fragmentary fin spines (Triassic) -- from more advanced sharks.
Paleospinax (early Jurassic) -- More advanced features such as detached upper jaw, but retains primitive ctenacanthid features such as two dorsal spines, primitive teeth, etc.
Spathobatis (late Jurassic) -- First proto-ray.
Protospinax (late Jurassic) -- A very early shark/skate. After this, first heterodonts, hexanchids, & nurse sharks appear (late Jurassic). Other shark groups date from the Cretaceous or Eocene. First true skates known from Upper Cretaceous.
A separate lineage leads from the ctenacanthids through Echinochimaera (late Mississippian) and Similihari (late Pennsylvanian) to the modern ratfish.

There are more, of course. Here is some more stuff.

The thing with evolution is that biology is a complex science just like nuclear physics. We do not understand many aspects of it, but it seems to be working so we assume the scientists have it somewhat right. With biology however, we lack the same understanding - only now science goes against our religious beliefs. So we're not inclined to cut it any slack.

No person I've met who've studied biology has come off thinking more of creation and less of evolution as a result. The increased understanding means what seemed magic before now, understood, is logical.

Ask away though. There are some people here that aren't experts in biology but can provide you with references and so forth.

Offline -dead-

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #158 on: January 26, 2003, 10:29:58 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta
In biology, a species is defined as a taxonomic group whose members can interbreed.
To be totally correct it's a taxonomic group whose members can interbreed to produce offspring that can also breed. Lions & Tigers can breed, as can donkeys and horses, but the offspring are sterile. However this ability is a pretty good indication that lions & tigers and donkeys & horses had common ancestors in the not too distant (in evolutionary terms) past.
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Offline TWOLF

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Great POST!!
« Reply #159 on: January 26, 2003, 10:44:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Animal
Those psychology classes you didnt take will lead you to the conclusion that on the most part both atheists of a certain kind and theists of a certain kind tend to be insecure, and thats why they love to argue with each other.

I dont really care about that.

What bothers me is when some people latch on to something so hard and refuse to let go, in a way that it harms the advancement of technology. All the scientific evidence is there showing you that evolution is a fact, but most still refuse to believe it because they are so insecure about their beliefs that anything that threatens their simple to understand dribble to fill a void in the mind and make you believe you have the answers has to be wrong.

I know many christian scientists. Hell I know PRIESTS who also dedicate themselves to science. When I talk to them about these subjects they explain to me that when your faith in God is so strong, any scientific revelation is not evidence AGAINST GOD, on the contrary, it more strongly reaffirms their belief that there must BE a God.

Hell, the only reason the Christian Church adopted the Big Bang theory as "Official" is because it could be bent to fit the belief of creation. Fine by me.

Did you know that this same paranoia and denial of advancement is what lead to the dark ages, where scientists who where studying things that would have been amazing breakthroughs where burned or jailed.
Not only that, but hardcore theists, many of orders similar to the Templars, would raid Muslim/Hindu cities only to burn libraries, univercities and centers of learning, and killing scholars, just because they thought that what they where studying and finding was a threat to their faith.

The burning of the library of Alexandria is believed to have set back technology and civilization about 2,000 years.

I find this paranoia and fear of anything related to science/philosophy to be absurd and against everything that a benevolent supreme being would want its followers to do.

Get with the times. Science is not an enemy of religion. On the others hand, ignorance is an enemy to humanity.


One of the best posts on this subject that I have ever read!

 I agree 100%

Offline Sandman

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #160 on: January 26, 2003, 10:51:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by -dead-
To be totally correct it's a taxonomic group whose members can interbreed to produce offspring that can also breed. Lions & Tigers can breed, as can donkeys and horses, but the offspring are sterile. However this ability is a pretty good indication that lions & tigers and donkeys & horses had common ancestors in the not too distant (in evolutionary terms) past.


Why sterility? What is it that makes such a specific outcome the result of certain interbreedings?

The fact that a farmer can take two animals and know that the offspring will be sterile but otherwise healthy is somewhat amazing to me.
sand

Offline -dead-

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« Reply #161 on: January 26, 2003, 12:33:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Why sterility? What is it that makes such a specific outcome the result of certain interbreedings?

The fact that a farmer can take two animals and know that the offspring will be sterile but otherwise healthy is somewhat amazing to me.
A few points to be made:
1. All the definitions are man made - and if the majority of the offspring can breed then they are by definition not a separate species. Remember that the definition is always after the fact. The universe doesn't care about what the definition of stuff is - it just gets on with being itself.
2. Genetics - when the genome differs it becomes more and more likely that offspring between two "groups" will be sterile. A parallel thing happens if the genome gets too close & lacks diversity - inbreeding can also result in sterility.  It's about as amazing as any other piece of known genetics really. No more amazing than if someone takes a poodle and breeds it with another poodle then the offspring is going to be a poodle too, and not a St. Bernard.
3. Scientific "laws" are almost always generalizations or approximations - for example the laws of electricity never quite match up to actual results on real life circuits - but the predicitions are extremely close. The danger involved in using averages and generalizations is best illustrated by the fact that the average Canadian only has one testicle.
4. Not all offspring are sterile - there is the odd rarity that can breed. Males are much less likely to be fertile. Genes change (they're famous for it); they are also not binary on or off things - they are often much more "fuzzy" - eg the presence of a gene for a certain characteristic may only represent a 70% liklihood of the characteristic happening; and they also do not represent the whole story - there are all sorts of other factors along with genes that dictate what an organism becomes - both internal - prions, enzymes, etc and environmental - temperature, food quality, weather, etc etc. But for the sake of the average AH BBS evolution thread it's usually safer to stick with the standard schoolbook "lies to children" kind of science rather than going into immense detail and boring people senseless.
5. We should also take into account what actually happens in nature - hybridisation amongst animals is pretty much an artificial process - lions don't hang around with tigers or leopards in the wild - indeed groups being isolated geographically or by separated by adapting to different habitats is one of the ways speciation takes place according to evolution theory.
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Offline Holden McGroin

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #162 on: January 26, 2003, 01:00:39 PM »
These Evolution debate threads get way too complicated.

Modification of species by selective breeding is a well established technology.  Otherwise, there would be no Clydesdales, no Quarterhorses, no Bloodhounds, no Basett Hounds, no Holstiens....

That environment and predation kills off the weakest members of the species, ie the ones that are least able to adapt is fact.

Therefore, natural selection exists, and the thought that species evolve to adapt to changing environments is established fact.

Whether you wish to extrapolate to the beginning of life is up to you, but the fact that evolution is a basic process in biology is not a stretch of logic by any measure.
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Offline Hortlund

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #163 on: January 26, 2003, 01:14:05 PM »
But you do realize that what you just described is something called microevolution...right? And you cannot just take cases of observed microevolution and extrapolate that into "...so therefore Darwin was right" or something like that.

Offline Sandman

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Evolution is a myth
« Reply #164 on: January 26, 2003, 01:16:24 PM »
Thanx Dead...

Quote
There is no difference between micro- and macroevolution except that genes between species usually diverge, while genes within species usually combine. The same processes that cause within-species evolution are responsible for above-species evolution, except that the processes that cause speciation include things that cannot happen to lesser groups, such as the evolution of different sexual apparatus (because, by definition, once organisms cannot interbreed, they are different species).
« Last Edit: January 26, 2003, 01:21:56 PM by Sandman »
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