Author Topic: Bomber Whine Inbound...Launch 163's!!! (Read 1154 times)

muckmaw · « **on:** January 26, 2003, 08:59:33 AM »

I'm about ready to turn in my Bomber wings after last night.

Here's the scene. FBGrumbl sets up a beautiful B-17 raid, that would span half the map, from the Knight base to the Bish HQ. We get 13 Bomber flights up, along with 10 escorts, and make our run. MrS sets us up in WWII Box formation. BGBMAW leads us to the target. 1 Sector out, we are swarmed with every 163 ever made x10! Out of 36 B-17's, 2 dropped their ordinance, while under heavy fire. We dropped from 24-28K. Not a single bomber survived, and none hit the target.

So now here's my peeve. How many 163's were built in WWII? For god's sake, you want Bombers to go after Strategic targets, and not airfields. Fine. Then you throw in a plane that the escorts can't catch, and really did not participate much at all in WWII.

So whats the bombers role? None. They have been effectively eliminated from AH. I mean, let's finish it, and just take them off the clipboard. (Yes, I know, whine...over the top...can't help it..frustrated.)

Now, I don't mind losing the mission. But I would prefer it be more historically accurate. We don't need that many 163's in the game.

Case in point. Later last night, Rooks up a 17 mission, almost the same as ours, going after OUR HQ. One of the MAW spotted the mission well south of the HQ. Now, we did not up 163's. We took FW-190 A8's. We climbed, intercepted, and knocked down every single bomber.

Like I said, I don't mind losing, missing, getting shot down, etc. I just would prefer to be shot down by a plane that actually served in numbers in WWII.

Snapshots to follow. Sorry for the whine, but I had to vent.

muckmaw · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:05:36 AM »

Bombers before forming up

Ih8maws · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:07:18 AM »

First time so many responded to the threat. For that matter radar is far better here than WWII. Quit your whining and accept that for a change bishops finally got organized to defeat a threat, especially when they heard it was a maw attack. (actually afterwords you corrected us that it was an FB mission that all maws were encouraged to join) Thumbs up to the 163! It takes skill to fly and not compress, it carries so little ammo, only the best can kill more than 1.

ALF · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:08:29 AM »

For such a mission to be a success, you need a few things:

[list=1]

Pork the fuel at the ME-163 bases, they dont get far at 25-50% fuel.
Fly at 25k+
Get some good gunners, an ME-163 can shoot down a bomber in one pass, but in a good box formation, thats all he should get.[
Come from at least two directions

Kweassa · « **Reply #4 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:33:56 AM »

A bit more delicate planning might have solved the problem.

For instance, accompanying escorts might arm themselves with light loads such as rockets, or, the formation itself could be accompanied by light/medium bombers which would attack the 163 field fuel tanks about 10 minutes prior to the arrival of the main buff stream into bomb-run range.

But of course, even with some talented pilots, the fuel porking mission will result in high casualties... but if someone wants to pork a HQ, hey, it's a risk worth taking.

crowMAW · « **Reply #5 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:39:17 AM »

This is one MAW that refused to participate in that foolish HQ raid, which was nothing more than a drain on resources (bish easily grabbed two knit bases while 20% of our fighting power waisted time in that run), and I encouraged other MAW not to participate. The result was a perfect example of why an HQ raid should not be loaded into the mission planner. They rarely succeed. And it would not matter if the 163s were taken out of the equation. The Rooks pulled a similar dweeby HQ run an hour or so later and the MAW countered with 15-20 D9s and 109s (no 163s) and decimated the Rook mission. None of the 25k bombers & scorts made it to target. NONE And while those Rook resources were tied up, knits grabbed a couple of Rook bases. They are not worth the time.

Rod and Kev of the 357 demonstrated the right way to take out dar...use just one box of 17s with a very good gunner on board. Hit the cities and then HQ. A single box of 17s is not going to draw enough attention to get enough interceptors attacking the raider. Then a good gunner can pick off the single interceptors one-by-one.

muckmaw · « **Reply #6 on:** January 26, 2003, 09:55:25 AM »

We tried to get in with some Jabo to take out the ME-163 fuel, but apparently, they did not make it.

As for Crow's opinion, I agree that it draws resources away from Knights, but look at it this way. There were 13 Bomber pilots and 10 escorts. No gunners. We're taling 23 pilots out of 160+ that were on Knights at the time.

Also, we took away from Bish resources, as their top squad, the AK's dropped what they were doing to intercept us.

Finally, though not strategically sound in your mind, a mission like this is a change of pace that some folks need. I certainly do. And it's not only fun for the guys flying the mission. It's also provided a nice intercept mission for the enemy.

Like I said originally, though, it would have been easier to swallow if we were intercepted by 15 190's instead of 163's.

hazed- · « **Reply #7 on:** January 26, 2003, 10:14:25 AM »

I also saw the mission and joined. Then i saw the route and thought it was a complete waste of time and withdrew.

The whole thing was intercepted due to the fact everyone saw a huge red blob coming and had time to launch 163s.I was willing to attack the 163 base with a NOE jabo raid from a26 (within 50 odd miles)to knock out the Komets fuel but due to the fact the mission route meant waiting an absolute age I didnt have the patience to wait the hours it would take the b17s to trace those waypoints.In the end by the time they arrived near the HQ I'd forgoten all about it.

If people want to hit the HQ they need to coordinate a strike on the 163 base.Either that or just take a single formation like ive seen many people do and put it out of action with minimal resistance.
To be honest the only time i like to be in very large formations of B17s is actually when they ARE attacked by defenders.I kind of envy the chance to shoot at ten 163s myself

I do understand your dislike of unrealistic war situations but like ive been told before countless times hardly anything about the MA is like the real situations in WW2.
they didnt have 190s fighting 190s or p47s fighting spitfires and lancasters didnt divebomb carriers.Its all a bit gamey in MA and to expect anything otherwise is being unrealistic in your expectations.

If you really want a realistic engagement (in terms of real matchups) then take the time to fly TOD and scenarios.The LW are almost always short of pilots for their bombers in scenarios whenever i join in. Perhaps you had best help us out?

bowser · « **Reply #8 on:** January 26, 2003, 10:22:29 AM »

Sort of funny when you remember every fluff driver telling the furballers to protect their fields if they didn't like the way fluffers played the game.

bowser

mia389 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 26, 2003, 11:06:55 AM »

I think they should put more perks on the 163. Good luck getting to that base,to pork the fuel in a jug or lighting your gonna have a 163 on your six that can out turn out accel and out climb you. Also when pushing a country lines back close to HQ then thats all you see is them buzzbombs flying around killing all your jabos.

ra · « **Reply #10 on:** January 26, 2003, 11:29:17 AM »

Quote

I think they should put more perks on the 163.

I agree. The 163 should be perked as much as the 262, if for no other reason than it was more rare. Also, the 163 is a better HQ defender because you can get up to 30K very quickly. Given a choice for HQ defense, most people would probably chose the 163.

ra

Pongo · « **Reply #11 on:** January 26, 2003, 11:57:07 AM »

There are so many tactics that could defeat the 163 interceptor threat that it isnt even worth bringing them up.

"So whats the bombers role? None. They have been effectively eliminated from AH. I mean, let's finish it, and just take them off the clipboard. (Yes, I know, whine...over the top...can't help it..frustrated.)
"
Only strat target you see is the HQ I guess...hint to MAW. The couties HQ should be hard to take down if there is still not air superiorty established. Think of what those 30 bombers could have accomplished with alt vs the real bish strat targets. 2 boxes per. 2 escorts per.. ANd then a box of 12 to hit the HQ in the confusion.
Or take down the dars on the way to the target so that there is no warning time.
Hit the little dar button on the map. It will show you the dars that you have to drop.

sling322 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 26, 2003, 12:25:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by muckmaw
Also, we took away from Bish resources, as their top squad, the AK's dropped what they were doing to intercept us.

When did the AKs get voted the top Bish squad?!?!?

I thought that honor went to Commander Rialbh's guys.

Dinger · « **Reply #13 on:** January 26, 2003, 01:07:15 PM »

Hehehe.
Yup, you're right this is a whine.
And like many whines, if you ask me the problem is not with game design, but with how it's being played.
It takes skill to fly bombers, just as it does for fighters. For bombers, a lot goes into planning a mission, setting the waypoints and hitting the target.
I don't think strategic importance should be an issue here. If you want to take a 2-hour flight tot he enemy HQ, I say go for it.

Furballing is easy. You find the nearest contested field, and you take off, over and over again, and if you're good, you get some kills.

Likewise, running bombs is easy. You find the nearest friendly field to an enemy field that's not very contested, you get 20 guys together and you fly at once. Bang. Instant field capture.

Strategic ops requires more work. You want a HQ mission? Great. But flying halfway across the map to come straight in on the target is going to bring 100 Me163s into your formation.

Here's what you need for a deep penetration mission:
high-altitude flight.
a route that waits until the last minute to tip the target. This may mean staying out of dot radar, or it may mean flying directly over enemy bases (making it look like you're hitting a different target). It will probably involve a couple of course changes.
And, as Hazed points out, a deep penetration strike has a much greater chance of success if you have an airfield suppression mission precede it.
Everybody is dying for the opportunity to use those rocket sleds. If you give it to them, they will come.
Another trick is to do Komet "Rodeos". Take a fort form and fly it to the komet base. Orbit with a dedicated gunner. You should be able to get at least three before being shot down.

MrLars · « **Reply #14 on:** January 26, 2003, 01:30:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by muckmaw
We tried to get in with some Jabo to take out the ME-163 fuel, but apparently, they did not make it.

So, why whine about the 163's when it was your countrys Jabo efforts that failed?

IMO, since the field < s > that 163's operate from are close to the HQ, it would be wise to make sure their fuel is porked before commiting your virtual tulips to an attention getting Buff raid.

But, that's just me.