Author Topic: State of the Union (Read 2332 times)

Dowding · « **Reply #45 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:38:07 AM »

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Personally, I'm tired of being the world's policeman.

That implies you had nothing to do with the origins of the situation you are dealing with - that you are simplying strolling along, the instrument of global consensus and doling out justice in situations that don't really have anything to do with you.

That's very naive.

Saddam is a US/NATO creation. He was a repressive monster when Donny Rumsfeld was helping Iraq gen up on Chemical/Biological weapons info and when we were giving him crate after crate of arms.

This is the US's mess - this IS your backyard as much as anyone else's.

I'm for the removal Saddam - but I'm not sure it's a priority right now and I particularly dislike the use of 'Homeland Security' as a justification.

Smut · « **Reply #46 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:43:50 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Saddam is a US/NATO creation. He was a repressive monster when Donny Rumsfeld was helping Iraq gen up on Chemical/Biological weapons info and when we were giving him crate after crate of arms.

So all those T-72's and AK-47's came from the US?

What about all those MiG's?

Who designed and help build KARI?

-Smut

Eagler · « **Reply #47 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:48:31 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
This is the US's mess -

then step aside as in shutting up while we clean it up

Thrawn · « **Reply #48 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:49:04 AM »

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Originally posted by Krusher
80 percent of their exports and 50 percent of their jobs are directly related to the US.

He (thrawn) better hope like hell he is wrong about taxes.

Normally I would be, and I certain would for the US economy to pick up. But Canada has the fastest growing enomomy in the G8. It used to be that if there was an economic slow down in the US it would it Canada hard. But it's just not happening. I think it's because the low Canadian doller and the fact that our government has cut spending in a huge way over the past 12 years, our goverment has be working with a surplus for quite a few years now. Alot of US based multi-nationals are openning offices in Canada because they can pay us in Canadian dollers.

AKIron · « **Reply #49 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:50:56 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
That implies you had nothing to do with the origins of the situation you are dealing with - that you are simplying strolling along, the instrument of global consensus and doling out justice in situations that don't really have anything to do with you.

That's very naive.

Saddam is a US/NATO creation. He was a repressive monster when Donny Rumsfeld was helping Iraq gen up on Chemical/Biological weapons info and when we were giving him crate after crate of arms.

This is the US's mess - this IS your backyard as much as anyone else's.

I'm for the removal Saddam - but I'm not sure it's a priority right now and I particularly dislike the use of 'Homeland Security' as a justification.

It implies nothing of the sort. Moving countries towards peace and/or democracy requires manipulation. I never denied that. But I think it's a lost cause. Too many in the world aren't interested in democracy or peace. And if you're implication that we've done nothing but make a mess of things is true then perhaps even more it's time for us to withdraw, close our borders, and say to hell with the rest of them.

Krusher · « **Reply #50 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:58:50 AM »

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Originally posted by Thrawn
Alot of US based multi-nationals are openning offices in Canada because they can pay us in Canadian dollers.

exactly....

Dowding · « **Reply #51 on:** January 29, 2003, 09:59:02 AM »

Who supplied him with the chemical/biological weapons technology the sum of which runs into billions of US dollars?

Who sold him materials such as Anthrax, VX, Nile Fever, Botulism up until 1992?

Who sold him bio-plant technical drawings, missile parts and guidance systems, long after Saddam had gassed 5000 Kurds?

Which Chamber of Commerce rubber stamped export licenses for all this stuff?

Who gave him parts for a super-gun capable of hitting Israel with huge WMD equipped shells?

Guess what? It wasn't the Russians!

If you think the origins of Saddams WMD program (which is what Bush is concerned about, not a bunch of tanks, planes and small arms) have nothing to do with the West, you are deluding yourself.

AKIron · « **Reply #52 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:03:23 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Who supplied him with the chemical/biological weapons technology the sum of which runs into billions of US dollars?

Who sold him material such as Anthrax, VX, Nile Fever, Botulism to Iraq up until 1992?

Who sold him bio-plant technical drawings, missile parts and guidance systems, long after Saddam had gassed 5000 Kurds?

Which Chamber of Commerce rubber stamped export licenses for all this stuff?

Who gave him a super-gun capable of hitting Israel with huge WMD equipped shells?

Guess what? It wasn't the Russians!

If you think the origins of Saddams WMD program (which is what Bush is concerned about, not a bunch of tanks, planes and small arms) have nothing to do with the West, you are deluding yourself.

I dunno, who? You do have evidence before making this accusation, right?

Saurdaukar · « **Reply #53 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:07:37 AM »

Dowding, just because states in the West (US, UK, France, Germany) gave "parts" that could be used for weapons creation doesnt mean that the West gave him weapons.

The supergun you are refering to, for example, was never completed once the US found out where the "piping" was going and stopped shipment of the tube segments.

Gunthr · « **Reply #54 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:13:54 AM »

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Who supplied him with the chemical/biological weapons technology the sum of which runs into billions of US dollars? -Dowding

Dowding, the issue at hand is the threat posed by Iraq.

If the USA in the past has supported Iraq, it doesn't change the fact that Iraq is presently a huge threat to people all over the world. Bush has only been President for two years, and I don't lay responsibility for previous foriegn policy issues on him.

I fully expect the President to protect our families and friends from this threat.

Smut · « **Reply #55 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:17:15 AM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Who supplied him with the chemical/biological weapons technology the sum of which runs into billions of US dollars?

Billions of dollars? Proof please.

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Originally posted by Dowding
Who sold him materials such as Anthrax, VX, Nile Fever, Botulism up until 1992?

Your end date is clearly wrong. Are you trying to say these materials were sold after Iraq invaded Kuwait?

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Originally posted by Dowding
Who sold him bio-plant technical drawings, missile parts and guidance systems, long after Saddam had gassed 5000 Kurds?

Which Chamber of Commerce rubber stamped export licenses for all this stuff?

Iraq was seen as the lesser of two evils following the chaos in Iran. A strong Iraq was viewed as an attractive counter to Iran.

Unfortunately, hindsight is 20/20.

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Originally posted by Dowding
Who gave him parts for a super-gun capable of hitting Israel with huge WMD equipped shells?

You might want to research this one a bit more...

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Originally posted by Dowding
Guess what? It wasn't the Russians!

Indeed it wasn't. In fact a great deal of Iraq's military hardware came from Europe. Go figure.

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Originally posted by Dowding
If you think the origins of Saddams WMD program (which is what Bush is concerned about, not a bunch of tanks, planes and small arms) have nothing to do with the West, you are deluding yourself.

Conventional Iraqi forces invaded Kuwait, and threatened to go further south.

Without those conventional forces, it would be fairly trival to take away Iraqi WMD.

You seem to think this is solely an American problem, due to past history or past weapons sales. The truth is much more complex than that. Indeed, it could be said that Saddam came to power in part due to the British.

-Smut

Pongo · « **Reply #56 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:34:36 AM »

Any canadian that smuggly instults the intelligence or speaking abliity of GW Bush has been ignoring our Prime minister for the last 9? years.
He is an inarticulate baffoon of a man that could not give a good speech in any language. He has a speech defect fo christ sakes.
He is the most un charismatic man that has ever been a national leader of any country.

The presidents speech as a justification of war in Iraq is a farce.
Apperently if the Iraqis dont confirm the intelligence estimates of the US and the UN then they should be invaded. No methodology of why the 30,000 number makes sence, how it was derrived. anything. We are going to invade because some number that a geek came up with..probably because that was the number he thought his boss wanted....was wrong.
If we invade and dont find rest of the 30000 warheads..does GW say sorry? Do we flay the guy that came up with the number? Do we give the Iragis their leader, country and oil back...

That speach would not reasure anyone that had any reasonable doubts about the morality of a US invasion of Iraq. It is the kind of nonsence that countries do that have NO EVIDENCE to support what ammounts to the first act of blantant aggression by a major power in the 21st Century.
Its like the Polish "raid" on the German radio tower staged by the Germans that triggered the invasion of Poland.

Obviosly interesting to see the intel next week.

I dont know. I dont want a nuclear capable Iraq either.

They had reaction to the speach on the street on CNN this AM. One old lady said she liked alot of what he wanted to do..but she was uneasy because he hadn't "promised" any of it...

Gunthr · « **Reply #57 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:45:17 AM »

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The presidents speech as a justification of war in Iraq is a farce.
Apperently if the Iraqis dont confirm the intelligence estimates of the US and the UN then they should be invaded. No methodology of why the 30,000 number makes sence, how it was derrived. anything. We are going to invade because some number that a geek came up with..probably because that was the number he thought his boss wanted....was wrong.
If we invade and dont find rest of the 30000 warheads..does GW say sorry? Do we flay the guy that came up with the number? Do we give the Iragis their leader, country and oil back... - Pongo

Pongo, with all due respect, just because the President didn't mail an explanation of the methodology or how the numbers were derived out to your address in Canada for your approval does not mean that the figures are incorrect.

I believe that all figures quoted in his speech are widely accepted by the United Nations and the intelligence agencies of several different countries.

lord dolf vader · « **Reply #58 on:** January 29, 2003, 10:46:47 AM »

so eagle if this tax cut goes thru you are going on record saying it will turn around the ecomomy? cause im willing to go on record that voodoo ecomomics by any other name is just horse toejam.

Pongo · « **Reply #59 on:** January 29, 2003, 11:47:48 AM »

You may be right Gunthr