Author Topic: Fuel cell cars (Read 642 times)

john9001 · « **on:** February 02, 2003, 07:42:10 PM »

City of LA Takes Delivery of First Fuel Cell Car
Honda FCX only fuel cell car certified for commercial use

LOS ANGELES, Dec. 2, 2002 -- The City of Los Angeles today took delivery of the nation's first certified fuel cell car, the Honda FCX. The Honda FCX being leased by the City will be used in normal, everyday use and was delivered in a ceremony today at City Hall including Mayor Jim Hahn and Hiroyuki Yoshino, President and Chief Executive Officer of Honda Motor Co., Ltd.

The hydrogen-powered Honda FCX is the only fuel cell vehicle certified by the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and U.S. EPA for every day commercial use. Under the two-year lease agreement, the City of LA will pay $500 a month to lease the first of five Honda FCX models with the other four vehicles being delivered in 2003. In addition, Honda has contracted with Air Products and Chemicals, Inc., based in Allentown, PA with local operations in El Segundo, to provide the hydrogen fuel and refueling infrastructure.

"This is a very exciting day for the City of Los Angeles as it takes a major, national leadership role in putting hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles into practical, everyday use," Mayor Hahn said. "Los Angeles City employees will use these fuel cell vehicles on a day-to-day basis, just like any other pool vehicle."

"Hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles hold great promise for future clean air vehicles and it is important that LA play a leading role in assisting in the development and early use of this technology. Working with Honda Motor company, which has a long history of firsts in developing environmentally sound vehicles, adds to the great prospect for continued air quality improvements for the citizens of Los Angeles."

Honda plans to lease about 30 fuel cell cars in California and Japan during the next two to three years. The company currently has no plans, however, for mass-market sales of fuel cell vehicles or sales to individuals.

"The future of the fuel cell vehicle shows great promise in reducing the global dependence on oil, and our association with the great City of Los Angeles is an important step in the pursuit of this goal," said Yoshino.

Both CARB and the EPA have certified the Honda FCX as a Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV). The FCX uses hydrogen supplied to a fuel cell "stack" to generate electricity that powers its electric motor.

With an output of up to 80 horsepower and 201 foot-pounds of torque, acceleration is similar to a Honda Civic. Water vapor is the only exhaust. The FCX has an EPA certified range of 170 miles and seating for four people, making it practical for a wide range of real-world applications.

Honda undertook fuel cell research in 1989 and has been road testing vehicles in the United States since 1999. Honda has also been a member of the California Fuel Cell Partnership based in Sacramento, Calif., since 1999.

dfl8rms · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2003, 08:22:00 PM »

Dumb question, but how would a hydrogen fuel cell car handle any climate that get to or below freezing for any length of time?

All for the emissions stuff, but in Minnesota, assuming some sort of heater to keep the water exhaust flowing in winter, the exhaust would be a hazard to the other drivers -- wouldn't be black ice anymore, just plain old ice.

Russian · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2003, 09:00:00 PM »

170 range....... How much does it cost to refuel?

hawk220 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2003, 10:28:52 PM »

the cost isn't really prob now.. its that Hydrogen stations are few and far between now.. they need to make many many more in order to make fuel cell cars more practical. Its about stinking time we got rid of 150 year old tech.

DA98 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 02, 2003, 10:44:56 PM »

A dumb question... how is hidrogen produced? Is it extracted from water via electrolysy (sp?)? Doesn't this process consume large quantities of energy? Or is it available in large quantities with a simpler, less energy consuming process?

hawk220 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2003, 12:24:04 AM »

check this out DA98

http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-cell.htm

J_A_B · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2003, 01:19:14 AM »

500 bucks a month to lease a Honda?

Promising technology, but it needs to be perfected (read: made economical). Perhaps it'll be viable in another 10 years. Anything that would reduce/eliminate our dependence on foreign oil is IMO money well spent.

J_A_B

Dowding · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2003, 03:21:06 AM »

It is far more efficient and less resource consuming to have one large fossil fuel burning power station than hundreds of thousands of individual fossil fuel engines running about the place.

capt. apathy · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2003, 04:12:17 AM »

I've wondered for a while (since 8th grade science actually) why we couldn't just have regular intenal combustion cars that burned hydrogen. if you injected it 2:1 with oxygen your emision would be water, right?

is this do-able or am I over-simplifying the process?

Dowding · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2003, 04:17:33 AM »

So you're going to have liquified oxygen and hydrogen fuel tanks on a regular car (any other way would take up too much volume)? Let me know before you drive through my neighbourhood - I'll be several hundred miles away waiting for the explosion.

I doubt you could harness the combustion of hydrogen, especially in the presence of oxygen in any non-Hiroshima type of way.

davidpt40 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2003, 05:26:12 AM »

A FLYING MACHINE? NO, THAT WILL NEVER WORK YOU SILLY FOOLS!!

Dowding, why would a hydrogen engine be any more dangerous than an engine that explodes gasoline?

straffo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2003, 05:47:09 AM »

Because of the conception of the engine
You can try to burn TNT if you want ... but the engine must have been build for that or warn me when you drive by

Dowding · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2003, 06:14:05 AM »

lol this isn't anything like flying. Let's take a look at what you'd need to build a hydrogen combustion vehicle.

First you need enough oxygen to burn the large volume of hydrogen needed to get enough power - atmospheric concentrations are far too low. So we need to concentrate it. Gaseous oxygen would be no good - since to use gaseous oxygen, one would require an airship on a line from your car for the volume required to store enough of it to get you from A to B.

The oxygen would have to be liqufied.

Let's assume you could liquefy it cheap enough for widespread use (which would be very difficult given the process involved). Liquid oxygen is far, far, far more dangerous and expensive than gasoline. Remember, for anything to burn it needs oxygen. That is why when you have high concentrations of it, things tend to explode and/or burst into flame. So you would need a fool proof method of storage and delivery from your everyday petrol station to the vehicle.

The slightest defect in the equipment would have catastrophic results. I would imagine that parking lots would become very risky places to be. Parking lot attendents would have to form a good union and get lots of danger money. Same goes for the fuel filler people at fuel stations - there would probably have to be a benevolent fund set-up and a national memorial.

As for liquid hydrogen, I'm not sure if it's even be attempted outside of a very hitech lab. You'd probably have to use laser cooling or some such technology.

Also remember that burning hydrogen and oxygen together in an internal combustion type of arrangement is NOT how a hydrogen fuel cell works - it works on chemical reaction rather than combustion to release energy.

So, in summary, I'd rather have a hydrogen fuel cell powered car than a hydrogen combustion car.

Angus · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2003, 07:38:56 AM »

Many good points in here.
Dowding: "It is far more efficient and less resource consuming to have one large fossil fuel burning power station than hundreds of thousands of individual fossil fuel engines running about the place."

, Correct!
A hydrogen powered car, even with the Hydrogen manufactured from fuel like diesel delivers more percentage of the original energy.
Secondly, the pollution is almost non existant.
I am not so sure about the combustion part. I think the first Hydro-cars used some sort of combustion, but I was unable to find out exactly how. There already are aero engines running on Hydrogen, and I'm pretty sure that they're not using the cell technoligy. Maybe they compress air and then pump hydrogen in and ignite in a turbinbe-like engine, I don't know. Anyway, it is estimated that an airliner with a given power output can be up to 30% LIGHTER if powered by Hydrogen than conventional fuel.
The tanks are a problem, they have to be thick and strong which means heavier. But the fuel is powerful.
In my country we are about to start running Hydro-buses in the capital, - supposed to start this year

lazs2 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2003, 08:21:52 AM »

sounds like an ok way to heat and cool and power my house so long as the natural gas holds out.
lazs