Author Topic: <S> Americans (Read 3598 times)

NUKE · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2003, 07:39:03 PM »

Thank you Hortlund

Very nice sentiments and very touching.

p.s.
CyranoAH
The Columbia was named after the first American ship that circumvented the globe in the 1700's.

Hangtime · « **Reply #16 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:23:31 PM »

Hortland, you panzie eurotrash talkin weenie..

thanks.

Gunthr · « **Reply #17 on:** February 03, 2003, 09:35:00 PM »

~~Hortlund... very welcome words, and so well written - hard to believe English is not your mother tongue.~~

Rockstar · « **Reply #18 on:** February 03, 2003, 10:03:49 PM »

~~Hortlund~~

Kanth · « **Reply #19 on:** February 03, 2003, 11:12:53 PM »

~~Hortlund~~

SaburoS · « **Reply #20 on:** February 04, 2003, 01:17:16 AM »

Hortlund,
Salute, sir.
Even though we all disagree at times, thank you for such an eloquent post. BTW, I hope you don't ever change. This BBS is definitely more boring without you.

Boroda · « **Reply #21 on:** February 04, 2003, 03:10:23 AM »

Well said Hortlund.

Don't stop, guys. It is worth it. And I hope Russians will do the best we can to help to overcome the problems with manned space programm.

We are different, but in some things we are very much alike. Both our nations made our way from ocean to ocean, and we are not going to stop regardless to any disaster that can look so bad now.

to the American people.

I was one of the first to bring flowers to American embassy in Moscow on Saturday, and believe me, my four flowers were not alone there.

Angus · « **Reply #22 on:** February 04, 2003, 04:16:47 AM »

Jolly good post Hortlund, - this could not have been done any better.
Lets hope that the Americans overcome this "bump" and continue their space program with even more ambition. There is a long way to go, and being a global thing, this is one thing that the nations of the wold can at least help each other with. Remember russian and american astronauts shaking hands in space in the middle of the cold war? And remember astronauts manning the shuttles, coming from all corners and races of the globe, - yes there was even an Icelandic astronaut!!!
Americans: keep going, you've done quite much so far, and we would not like you to stop there.

funkedup · « **Reply #23 on:** February 04, 2003, 04:27:12 AM »

Aww shucks Hortlund and Boroda et al.
Now I feel bad making Euro jokes.
I would say something nice about Sweden or Russia but I'm too arrogant.

You shouldn't compliment us like that, it just goes to our head.

StSanta · « **Reply #24 on:** February 04, 2003, 07:16:03 AM »

You see, for some of us Europeans the American fascination of the frontier can be hard to understand. For most Europeans the frontier is the place where civilization stops. While it seems that for an american it is the place where dreams begin. It is the place where the american dream lives.

Say that to Columbus. Say that to ALL the early western explorers.

Yes, yes, the US are always cutting edge while Europe is sitting in the back, comfortably ignoring the fringes.

Werner von Braun. German. Went to the US. Other German scientists went to the USSR.

But only the US dares to push the limits.

I see it now.

It's a nice post, but it's too much of a suckup to Americans. Well, at least Hortlund has come out of the closet.

Dowding · « **Reply #25 on:** February 04, 2003, 07:33:37 AM »

I think I actually might vomit.

The spirit of exploration is not owned by any one nation - it is human nature and has nothing to do with nationality. Look at history - Magellan, Drake, Columbus, Marco Polo even those Viking dudes who apparently discovered America all orginated from different societies but produced astounding discoveries for their time. Every one was taking their lives in their hands and stepping into the unknown. Many died along the way.

At this moment in time, the US has the resources and the political will to send brave individuals to the next frontier. It's just another addition to the long line of explorers that went before, except each step takes more effort and more resources.

So let's drop the sycophantic pandering that seems to have errupted around here and get real. The Columbia's crew made a sacrifice for greater ideal, I'm sure it will not be in vain.

Therefore, to bring Iraq into the discussion cheapens the whole thing. Space exploration is meant to be inclusive, and you can bet every nation on Earth has wondered about travelling out there. Even Iraqis, given their ancestors were part of the Persian empire including its reknowned astronomers. It is simply human nature to keep pushing at the walls.

Krusher · « **Reply #26 on:** February 04, 2003, 08:17:50 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Boroda
Well said Hortlund.

Don't stop, guys. It is worth it. And I hope Russians will do the best we can to help to overcome the problems with manned space programm.

We are different, but in some things we are very much alike. Both our nations made our way from ocean to ocean, and we are not going to stop regardless to any disaster that can look so bad now.

to the American people.

I was one of the first to bring flowers to American embassy in Moscow on Saturday, and believe me, my four flowers were not alone there.

~~If it wasnt for the Russians we might have 3 guys walking back from the ISS~~

CyranoAH · « **Reply #27 on:** February 04, 2003, 08:38:10 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Krusher
If it wasnt for the Russians we might have 3 guys walking back from the ISS

Amen.

lazs2 · « **Reply #28 on:** February 04, 2003, 08:40:59 AM »

spain? sounds sorta familiar... something to do with flaminco dancing or something?
lazs

Hortlund · « **Reply #29 on:** February 04, 2003, 09:00:50 AM »

The spirit of exploration is not owned by any one nation. That is very true.

In Sweden we hold our Vikings as a proud example of that spirit of exploration.
In Spain and Portugal, the explorers and the conquistadors are held up as proud examples of that spirit.
In England, men like Cook and Livingston are held up as proud examples of that spirit.
Yes, mankind has always wanted to see what's beyond the horizon.

I dont think that is relevant to the current discussion.

I do not think that any European nation or any gathering of European nations could start and maintain such a space program as the Americans have. Simply because we could never focus for long enough. Santa, you live in Denmark, Dowding you live in England. You bloody well know that the idea of pumping in billions of dollars into a space program every year would not survive one year, let alone 40+ years. I can see it now already…the endless "Why should we pay trillions of dollars to send up three guys into space when there are people starving in Somalia/when a factory worker is earning 10c an hour/when there are places where the money is better spent for example *insert whatever reason* ".

Heck, most European nations cant even keep their current military budgets despite the fact that the world is more unsafe now than since ww2. Instead we spend our money on aid to various suspect third world nations, we spend our money on gigantic social security programs, we spend our money on weird weird ideas…

What I am talking about is not personal interest, motivation, desire. What I am talking about is the ability for one nation to stay focused over an extended period of time, working towards a goal that might not be clear, a goal that might not be reachable in a lifetime. An ability to accept loss of life trying to achieve that goal, an ability to keep focused.

In Europe, that would never happen. First, because no European nation is rich enough to have its very own manned space program. Second because as soon as there are two European nations cooperating about anything, there are too many differences of opinion involved. Yes I know there are examples of such cooperation, like Concorde, Tiger, Eurofighter etc but that is on a completely different scale than a space program would require.

The EU will ultimately fail because we really dont want to be that closely tied together…ever think about that? Germany and France (together with the Benelux countries) started what would later become the EC and the EU in 1952 with the coal and steel union….but why did they really do that? Because they wanted to keep a close eye on each others production of coal and steel (critical for warfare in 1952). Then this project grew into the EC, and more nations joined, simply because it seemed to be a good idea to abolish trade tariffs inside Europe, and it would be a good counterweight to the US. It was good economics.

Then this project grew into the EU, and suddenly the idea became more than just peaceful and economic, now there were talks about a common foreign policy and a common security policy... and soon it will grow even bigger. And then nations will start to break out.

Personally I have no desire to be in a union with Poland, Hungary, France, Spain, Greece (the list can be made long) the idea to open the Swedish borders to Poland, Lithuania, Slovenia freaks me out because I do not trust those countries. It will become even worse when Turkey eventually joins, together with Romania and Bulgaria. I dont want my tax dollars going to subsidize some weird French farmer, or some ridiculous crap like that. Besides, I dont even want to eat French or English or German meat because I dont trust their farmers (Sweden is the only EU nation without any case of mad cow disease).

I guess you can call me Mr Isolationistic.

No, the EU is just a political project gone wild, one that lacks the fundamental support of the citizens of the various member nations. An EU space program? Please, we cant even agree on cod fishing for crying out loud.

So go ahead and vomit Dowding. It doesnt matter really, we just see things differently. Personally I am of the opinion that a manned space program is to the benefit of all of mankind. Heck I think the future of mankind is out there. I am also of the opinion that the US is the only nation in the world able to lead the way. I also think it is the only nation in the would that would openly invite scientists from all around the world to participate in that space program. Other nations might be able to go into space too, but you have to ask yourself why those nations are going into space.

Apparently you disliked my comment on Iraq or the Taliban, so let me ask you this. Do you really think that the Taliban, would be interested in manned space flight? You know who I'm talking about here…right? You know the guys blowing up centuries old Buddha statues because the Koran forbids images of people, the guys sending all their kids to Koran schools where they are indoctrinated on the teachings of the Koran and the Koran only. DO YOU REALLY THINK that they would want to start their own manned space program of peaceful exploration? Well I DONT. I think they would rather see a planet dominated by Islam first, and then they would revert back to some neolithic culture where women are stoned for wearing a skirt.

Same for Iraq. Do you really think that Saddam Hussein would launch his own manned space program with the sole purpose of peaceful exploration? No, IF he would ever launch his own space program, you can bet that he would have some alternate motive. He would not do it for the greater glory of mankind. He would do it either for the greater glory of himself, or to place some weapon out there in orbit.

Now China has started their own space program. Do you think they are doing it for their own good or for the greater good of mankind? Same with the USSR, do you think they went into space so they could share all their discoveries with scientists all over the world? BECAUSE I DONT THINK SO. I think they went into space as a part of the arms race, to gain an advantage. I think China is going into space as a part of the new arms race, to catch up with the American domination.

Santa, I dont know what it is with you lately, but your latest string of posts are just weird. Apparently you think I'm sucking up to the Americans...Personally I think it is about respect and (when it comes to their achievements in space) some admiration.