Author Topic: Powells speech so far... (Read 6204 times)

Boroda · « **Reply #195 on:** February 12, 2003, 01:12:48 PM »

Thank you Hortlund.

Sorry.

Peace.

CptTrips · « **Reply #196 on:** February 13, 2003, 08:55:43 AM »

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I don't know.

I don't want to believe either nazi propaganda of obviously "edited" communist version. All I want to do here is to show Toad that the nazi version he so strongly supports is a roadkill, and a pretty obvious lie.

Frankly speaking I WANT to believe that Katyn' is nazis work. I hope you understand why.

Fair enough. I don't know either.

I strongly suspect the Russians did it, but I can understand you hoping they had not.

I guess you Godless Bolsheviks can actually be reasonable when you try really really hard.

Wab

AKIron · « **Reply #197 on:** February 13, 2003, 09:01:08 AM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
we killed Kennedy

I've always suspected that.

Toad · « **Reply #198 on:** February 13, 2003, 09:05:19 AM »

It isn't the "Nazi version."

That's just more BS smokescreen.

Boroda's own government... both Gorbachev and Yetlsin..... ADMITTED THAT THE NKVD UNDER STALIN'S ORDERS KILLED THE POLISH POW'S.

Let's see now. All historical research shows the Soviet Union did it. The government of the Soviet Union ADMITS doing it.

Gee........ I wonder who did it?

Yas gotta be kidding me!

And I LOVE the "we had to take our half of Poland or else the Nazi's would have gotten closer to Moscow!"

Gosh, did you ever think of HELPING POLAND FIGHT THE NAZIS?

Wouldn't THAT have been even more effective at keeping them away from Moscow? Instead of KILLING the Polish Army, you guys could have helped them KILL the GERMAN ARMY!

Wow! What a concept!

But then Molotov-Ribbentrop had already sliced up Poland's carcass between the Nazis and the Soviet Union before the first trigger had been pulled.

...... this despite all the prior treaties between Poland and the Soviet Union.

Dowding · « **Reply #199 on:** February 13, 2003, 09:29:52 AM »

Toad, give it up. Sometime people want to make up their own facts to support their own view of the world.

Something tells me Boroda can never admit Katyn was a Russian atrocity.

The fact that the Stalinist regime was ready to murder millions of its own people, nevermind a bunch of foreign soldiers, really doesn't seem to hold much sway, apparently.

Toad · « **Reply #200 on:** February 13, 2003, 10:18:52 AM »

Nope. I'll never give this one up.

That's exactly how those guys got as far as they did. They kept lying and we all just assumed everyone knew it. Pretty soon, their lies became the only words out there and they acquired a patina of respectability.

I have no hatred for the Russian people at all. I suspect they are quite like us in most respects.

But you CANNOT deny history. They allowed their government to execute MILLIONS of human beings in the name of Communism both within and without their own country.

The Polish Prisoners were just ONE act. Boroda can deny it all he likes. Unfortunately for him, the forensic evidence, the modern research and THE ADMISSION OF GUILT BY HIS OWN GOVERNMENT[/COLOR] makes him look pretty silly.

The treatment of their own citizens is even more horrendous.

But then..... The Ukraine Famine, The Gulag Archipelago... those didn't happen either did they?

Boroda · « **Reply #201 on:** February 13, 2003, 12:15:54 PM »

First of all, I want to say that i't's extremely difficult to talk to fanatics who are so completely brainwashed and full of hatred that was cultivated from childhood years.

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Originally posted by Toad
It isn't the "Nazi version."

That's just more BS smokescreen.

IT IS A NAZI VERSION.

Toad, you are repeating Goebels's lies, COMPLETELY avoiding evidence confirmed by YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT in 1944.

I understand that later nazis became "not-so-bad", while "asian hordes of jewish bolsheviks" suddenly turned to be a deadly enemy. BTW, I am happy to know you're still scared. One day we'll come and make you all eat borsch (c) GH

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Originally posted by Toad

Boroda's own government... both Gorbachev and Yetlsin..... ADMITTED THAT THE NKVD UNDER STALIN'S ORDERS KILLED THE POLISH POW'S.

Damn, US and other Allied governments already agreed it was done by nazis! Toad, how can you disagree! Shame on you!

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Originally posted by Toad

Let's see now. All historical research shows the Soviet Union did it. The government of the Soviet Union ADMITS doing it.

You call nazi ministry of propaganda fakes a "historical research"? Well, the research is worth the historians.

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Originally posted by Toad

And I LOVE the "we had to take our half of Poland or else the Nazi's would have gotten closer to Moscow!"

Gosh, did you ever think of HELPING POLAND FIGHT THE NAZIS?

Toad, I live less then 10km from the place where nazis were stopped in December 1941 in Khimki on Leningrad highway. Now this place is inside the city border.

Helping Poland to fight nazis? I thought that it was UK and France who guaranteed the security of Poland. And it was UK and France who did their best to lead the talks with USSR in summer 1939 to the dead end. That's why we had to sign a non-agression treaty, because UK and France didn't want to talk about joint opposition to Germany and sent incompetent retired generals and politicians to Moscow only to delay any possible agreement.

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Originally posted by Toad

Wouldn't THAT have been even more effective at keeping them away from Moscow? Instead of KILLING the Polish Army, you guys could have helped them KILL the GERMAN ARMY!

Wow! What a concept!

Toad, I wonder if you know what you talk about. Who fought nazis in Wojsko Polsko together with Soviet Army? Maybe Albanians? Maybe my Grandfather provided artillery support for Zulus wearing Cofederate caps in Koscushko division?

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Originally posted by Toad

But then Molotov-Ribbentrop had already sliced up Poland's carcass between the Nazis and the Soviet Union before the first trigger had been pulled.

Sources please. I mean documents.

I also want to know why UK, France or US didn't object about Soviet "invasion" in Poland. Maybe because USSR simply took back the lands occupied by Poland in 1919-20? Why the hell do you call it "agression" when your own government didn't do it in 1939?!

Please think about one little thing: why should I agree with some amazinhunk "democraticaly" elected into the government of my country when you "disagree" with great people like FDR?

Boroda · « **Reply #202 on:** February 13, 2003, 12:36:13 PM »

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Originally posted by Toad
Nope. I'll never give this one up.

That's exactly how those guys got as far as they did. They kept lying and we all just assumed everyone knew it. Pretty soon, their lies became the only words out there and they acquired a patina of respectability.

Toad, you tell me about "only words out there"!? You are unable to read MY sources, while I understand yours, and more to say, read dozens of classical WWII history books by Western authors, that were translated and published HERE since 50s. I think that you'd better stop making fool of yourself. You know nothing about life here except some stupid Hollywood movie crap.

Reading and seeing all that roadkill about my country anyone can come to a conclusion about WHO was the real master of lies.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #203 on:** February 13, 2003, 12:41:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Boroda
Sources please. I mean documents.

Why should he bother trying to obtain documentary proof for you? In the past, all of Toad's efforts in this regard have met with your claiming that the scanned documents were clear forgeries and lies.

It's impossible to reason with you on these matters, because no matter what evidence we present to you, you either discount it as Western propoganda or disregard it as counterfeit. And I'm talking primary sources, not just some Western historian's interpretation of evidence.

Amazingly, you continue to perpetuate this myth of an anti-Russian bias among Western historians even when the history has been written by Eastern Europeans or Russians. I'm curious how you would explain Volkogonov's unflattering portrayal of Stalin based on previously classified archival material. Maybe he holds a grudge against Stalin because his father was murdered under Stalinistic purges... but wait! Those purges never happened because the entire country would be empty now, so maybe he's just a Western lacky trying to appease his Western-friendly political masters. That must be it!

-- Todd/Leviathn

Dowding · « **Reply #204 on:** February 13, 2003, 12:59:54 PM »

That's a fair point, Toad. But you'll never get what you want - some people build their lives on shifting sands, but will point-blank refuse to believe they are shifting at all. Even if you supply them with all the structural engineer's reports in the world.

What a silly analogy. Oh well...

I've enjoyed reading about Russian communist history. It's shown me how weak people can be and how they can create a hell for millions of others without remorse. It's also showed me how strong people can be in the face of such adversity. I have a lot of respect for your average Russian.

My favourite story is that of Beria. The animalistic butcher directly responsible for the murder of so many, was still convinced there had been a mistake when the bullet ordered for him by Stalin was passing through his head. There's something satisfying about that given what he had been responsible for before. Perhaps the only redeeming feature of Stalin's regime was that all the hatchetmen went the way of their victims sooner or later. Except for Molotov. The rest of it makes dismal reading. Not much to feel good about, really.

Dead Man Flying · « **Reply #205 on:** February 13, 2003, 01:31:10 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
My favourite story is that of Beria. The animalistic butcher directly responsible for the murder of so many, was still convinced there had been a mistake when the bullet ordered for him by Stalin was passing through his head.

Are you certain of this? I'm pretty sure Beria was arrested and executed months after Stalin's death... mostly on trumped up charges pushed by Malenkov and Kruschev. They viewed him as a legitimate threat to Party (and as such, their) control over the USSR.

-- Todd/Leviathn

Dowding · « **Reply #206 on:** February 13, 2003, 01:35:03 PM »

Ooops, you're right.

I must thinking of someone else, an earlier hatchetman. There were quite a few while Stalin was around.

Boroda · « **Reply #207 on:** February 13, 2003, 01:54:52 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
My favourite story is that of Beria. The animalistic butcher directly responsible for the murder of so many, was still convinced there had been a mistake when the bullet ordered for him by Stalin was passing through his head. There's something satisfying about that given what he had been responsible for before. Perhaps the only redeeming feature of Stalin's regime was that all the hatchetmen went the way of their victims sooner or later. Except for Molotov. The rest of it makes dismal reading. Not much to feel good about, really.

Dowding, what you say is not true.

Beria is a very interestig and tragic figure even among other Stalin's teammates (forgive me this word please).

He was sentenced and executed as a British spy. Did you know your country had such spies? James Bond is just a kid compared to him.

The accusation was an obvious fake, just as many others.

But the real cause for an execution was Beria's policy after Stalin's death. His main idea was to get rid of the Party as a "leading force" and the main power is control of everything. He started to release political prisoners. Looks like he wanted to release tension and allow some step-by-step democratic reforms. No doubt that Party leaders realised how dangerous he was for them and arranged a coup supported by the Army and enormous authority of Zhukov. There are some evidences that Beria was not brought by the jury, but shot down during the arrest because it was too dangerous to hold him in jail.

I can't tell much about Beria's "crimes", noone was innocent in that times, but I can assure you that it was Khruschev's decision to make him responsible for most of the repressions. You can look at the dates when he was the People's Commissar or Minister of internal affairs. His main job after the war was to organize strategic scientific projects: the Bomb, rockets including guided SAMs and ballistic missiles, other stuff. But Khruschev was so angry about him that he ordered to wipe him away from the Mausoleum tribune in a film about Victory Parade.

In 2000 Beria's case was sent to Military counsil of Supreme Court, for possible reabilitation from the official accusations. The fact that accusations were fake is obvious. But the jury stated that every sentence is correct and he indeed was a British spy. I hope it can give you an idea of how the things are here now. Everything suddenly went upside down, but common sence didn't appear. What I am trying to find is the thin line where both points of view meet and where truth can be found. That's why I say I don't know about Katyn.

Boroda · « **Reply #208 on:** February 13, 2003, 01:57:09 PM »

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Originally posted by Dowding
Ooops, you're right. I must thinking of someone else, an earlier hatchetman. There were quite a few while Stalin was around.

You probably thought about Yezhov.

Boroda · « **Reply #209 on:** February 13, 2003, 02:03:10 PM »

Just to make things clear.

My Grandfather was arrested in early-30s as a "member of a former Tsar's officers coup". He was released and all charges abandoned after spending two years in BAMlag and continued to serve in the Army, but as a major, not a brigade commander, and became a commander of a military horse farm near Rostov.

My Grand-grandfather was arrested in 1939 and accused of sabotage on his railway line. He was declared an "enemy of the people" and never came back.