Why in your opinion was the

[daddog]

P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?

Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?

[Octavius]

The P-38 was one of the great aircraft of World War II.  Our thought was that those guys in Europe didn't know how to use it right, and I still think that.

-Col. Charles MacDonald, Commanding Officer 475th FG- 27 aerial victories


That was taken from the P38 usage and statistics page in the Help section of this website.  How valid is that statement?  Were the tactics used in Europe any different than the Pacific other than point and shoot?

[Batz]

Do you know something we dont

I wouldnt classify it a "failure" but its was expensive and took longer to produce then single eng planes. The p38 faced an experienced lw, even in NA.

Theres some on here that will tell you the p38 was flying through telephone poles while shooting down hundreds of lw planes while outnumbered and was made of titanium. Thats mostly bs spin.

Galland thought the p38 was no tougher to kill then a 110 was. Theres rumors that the lw sent their green pilots after the 38s.

The 38 is not particularly fast (although it could outrun the 190as and 109s lo), its roll isnt that great and its climb is not better then the 109s, especially above 6000m. The 38 had poor visibility from the rear and sides.

In the pto it was easily faster, climbed better, better armed and had decent range. Its twin eng was a safety feature while flying over the ocean.

Go here

http://tonywood.cjb.net/

Start here

Mediterranean & Southern Front 1941-1942. Vol. I Nov '42

This is by no means a complete list but you can see they had a tough time.

The p38 wasnt a "failure" it just wasnt the plane the p47 or p51 was.

ISBN 1-85367-327-7
Greenhill books 1998

At Kaufbeuren, Germany, 2 September 1945


page 217, Chapter 30

'GAF opinions of allied aircraft'

Interigation of Generalleutnant Galland,Generalfeldmarschel Milch,Oberstleutnant Bar,Generalmajor Hitschhold, and Leutnant Neuman at kaufbeuren Germany 2nd september 1945.

'The Lightning (P38) This aircraft was very fast and had a good rate of climb below 20,000 feet. Visibility backwards , downwards and over the engines was very poor.It was considered a good strafer due to its armament ,visibilty,speed and silent motors.Its main drawback were its vulnerability and lack of maneuverability.On the deck, it could out-run the me.109 and fw190.German fighters would always attack the P38s in preference to other allied escort fighters.'

Also we have the p38l in aces high and its not representative of the 38 models the lw faced.

When the 38 first flew over over Europe they got a good whoopin at the hands of the 190. This was mostly do to pilot inexperience.

But like every oher plane it comes down to the pilot.

We need earlier variants of the 38 for events, AH2:ToD and the ct.

Heinrich Bartels shot 14 p38s.

[Seeker]

Complication and mechanical delicacy at very high alts in the early models which saw service in the ETO.

The P38 was also succesfull in the MTO; where the mission profile was different.

[MotorOil]

Range and the survivability of a twin engine design served the aircraft well in the Pacific.  Jap planes were generally not as fast as compared to LW planes that could catch the 38.  Many LW planes could out dive the 38.  Some of the Jap planes might not have done so well in a dive compared to the 38.

As for the "main" comparison, well, I've seen some great 38 drivers but there is always someone in a faster plane who can take a shot at the 38.  Personally I find the 38 one of the easiest planes to kill if I can catch it.  A skilled 38 driver will keep his energy and never allow the opposition to get a shot off.

[Ghosth]

Batz has part of it, seeker is also correct.

In my opinion they tried to use it as a long range high altitude bomber escort.

Clearly it did better as a lower alt ground attack & sweep fighter.

[rod367th]

Wasn't to late in war that U.s. gov. Decided to fix Dirty air problem. P38 was a widow maker. with its design flaw. when it was fixed in late 1943 it became a great plane.


http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73551




 from Hap s talk on p38's

Problems...

But Lockheed as a company was unused to playing the political games required to bring a major production fighter through its infancy, and other unique problems plagued the Lightning as it was developed. It was fast - too fast, as it become the first fighter to suffer heavily from compression (until then a largely misunderstood aerodynamic effect) with deadly results. The inline V12 engines could be married to a supercharger system that delivered high horsepower, but the entire system was unreasonably finicky compared to the much sturdier radials popular in other designs. Eventually difficulties with the Lightning reached almost bizarre proportions - for example a C47 carrying equipment to correct compression on many of the operational P38s in the 8th Army Air Force was accidentally shot down over the Atlantic by a British pilot, a setback that cost the P38 months of good use in Europe.

These events conspired to put the Lightning in a difficult situation: in the early part of the European bombing campaign, it was the only fighter with range to fly into Germany and back, but it was also basically an incomplete design, and Lockheed was having a very difficult time meeting production demands that required both new fighters and retro fittings for older units at the same time.

[funkedup]

Quality of adversary airplanes and aircrew.

[Pongo]

Poor reliability at high alt low tempretures.
Very complex to fly.
This really hit the pilots in regards to being bounced. In a well structured and expertley manned Ground Control Intercept enviroment the offensive aircraft will often have to contend with well set up bounces.
It took the pilot a long series of operations to take a Lightning from cruise to combat. During which time it was not near full effective and the pilot was occupied in the cockpit. This combined with the effectiveness of the LW ground controlers in setting up a bounce and the distinctive shape of the 38 allowing the German pilots to identify it visually very early on to set up a bounce from one of its huge blind spots made the AC quite a bit more vulnerable then the Jug or the 51

[Walker42]

"P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?

Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?"


I think the P-38 will preform just as well in the ETO, as the PTO in games.   You can't replicate most the problems the P-38 faced in the ETO in a gaming enviroment.  


I've been doing alot of research on the P-38 over the last months.  It amazes me how unlucky Lockheed was.      If Lockheed was luckier it's a good possiblility the P-51, and P-47 wouldn't have been so popular, or numerous.

Do some research on the P-38K model.    


Good P-38 Read

Yep, I'm a new guy.

S!

[ramzey]

Originally posted by funkedup
Quality of adversary airplanes and aircrew.

i think the same

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by daddog
P-38 a failure in the ETO (or at least not as successful) and a success in the PTO?

Do you think the same would be true of it in Aces High?

There are a lot of reasons why the P-38 was less successful in ETO than it was in the PTO or MTO.  Inadequate pilot training in two engine fighter operations, no clear initial understanding of compressability and some design flaws that didn't take under account the cold temperatures of high altitude flying.  These are just some of the reasons why the P-38 wasn't considered an overwhelming success in the ETO.  Which is strange for an aircraft that was nicknamed the "Forked Tail Devil" by the enemy.

Once the kinks were worked out by the time the J models rolled out, the P-38 was just as a deadly fighter as any of the LW planes it faced but a lot of the higher command had already given up on the P-38 in the ETO so it's fate was pretty much sealed.

In other area of operations like the Pacific and Meditteranian the P-38 was successful, in a large part due to the operation altitudes were lower then in the Europe theater were operational altitudes were over commonly over 20,000ft.  The average operational altitude in the Meditteranian and Pacific was 15,000ft so the P-38 rarely encountered the problems the P-38s in Europe faced, stuff like compressability.   With its long range, hitting power of its guns and ground attack capabilities, the P-38 became on of the most successful fighters in the Pacific and Meditteranian theaters.  Remember the two top all time U.S. aces flew P-38s which shows how effective it was in the Pacific.

How does this relate to the P-38 in Aces High?   Other than the inherent disadvantages of the P-38 like its large profile, less than stellar cockpit visibility,  and slow low speed roll rate (there are more but you get the idea) the only real thing you have to watch out for in the P-38 is compressability when you are flying above 20,000ft. Besides compressability, none of the other reasons why P-38 was considered a failure in the ETO is a real factor in AH.




Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

[Batz]

p38 was more successfull then the p39 and p40 in the med. It still was easily handled by the lw.

The p38 was replaced in the med as fast as it was in the ETO. Jugs and p51s took over the load. Follow that link provided of confirmed kills.

Erich Rudorffer:

It was south of Tunis, about 180 kilometres. We got word - we were based at Kairouan - that bombers and fighters were on the way (B-17s of the 301st BG and P-38s of the 1st FG). One Staffel was already sitting in their aircraft and I ordered them off. I was always last to take off and waited to get the latest information on the enemy's course and speed. Then I took off with my Schwarm of four and we assembled with the others in the air and headed for the "dicke Autos und Indianer". They were coming from the west, about 24 B-17s, 18 P-40s, 20 P-38s and a similar number of Spitfires - some of them may have been Hurricanes because when the dogfight began I thought I saw some Hurricanes also. We were at about 7000 metres and the bombers were below us, the P-40s above.

When we started for the bombers the Curtiss fighters came down on us and that's when the dogfight began. After a time the P-40s, which were not as fast as us, went into a 'Luftbery' circle and I began to slip in from low and high and shoot them donw. I managed to shoot down six in about seven minutes. As I recall the combat report, I got one at 1359 and the last at 1406. By that time the fight had broken up and everyone had scattered. Then I saw somw P-38s strafing below us, and though I had only about four FW 190s with me at this time, I went down at them and surprised them. I got one coming from above and then went up again and came down on another and shot him down. That gave me eight for the day - I remember it because it was one of the best days I ever had.

15 February was another eventful day for II./JG 2. B-26s attacked Kairouan, and while scrambling to intercept these bombers, Uffz Rudolf Weitgruber was injured when his FW 190 somersaulted during take-off. The Gruppe achieved more success on this day, with 11 claims being made. The Gruppenkommandeur Lt Rudorffer shot down seven Allied aircraft on a late afternoon sortie, including four P-38s north-west of Pichon and three Spitfires north of El Abeid.

FYI The "Fork Tail Devil" is what ground forces called the p38 not the lw.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Batz
Then I saw somw P-38s strafing
                                 below us, and though I had only about four FW 190s with me at this time, I went down at them
                                 and surprised them. I got one coming from above and then went up again and came down on
                                 another and shot him down. That gave me eight for the day - I remember it because it was one of
                                 the best days I ever had.

No offense and I don't want to get into a P-38 is superior to any Luftwaffe plane but that story doesn't prove that the Luftwaffe fighters didn't have problems against the P-38.  He describes a text book bounce on an unsuspecting group of enemies.  I can post stories of P-38 pilots about their stories of bouncing unwary Luftwaffe pilots and that doesn't prove that the P-38 was far superior than any Luftwaffe plane.


Ack-Ack

[Batz]

I said follow the link I posted above, see all those p38 kills?

Theres nothing to "prove". The p38 while better then the p40/p39 didnt fair any better in the med then it did in the eto in a2a combat.

It was superior for ground work.

The fact is they dropped the p38 in med as soon as they got p47s and p51s just like they did in Western Europe.