BS or not BS?

[Sox]

hear is a bit from that article that Baddawg gave out

. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down.

Here Johnson says he was friend with Adolf Galland. Im a mistakin or was Adolf a German pilot...I had uncles that fought in WWII on the ground. And I am proud that that served there country. If i was a German, i would have the same respect for my German Uncles. May not see there veiws but be proud that at the time of war thay gave there life for there country. This post was not glamerizing what views the Germans had nor saying that what thay did was good. Just looking at history and learning from People that where in that realy awefull war.



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VMF-212  Lancers

[Thog]

Excellent point easymo.

My opinion is that you are an idiot, and that folks like you cause wars like that.

But, that's simply my opinion, and both subject to change and nothing to shoot someone over.

So now that we've expressed our opinions, a question for the amature and not-amature historians here;  would we really have any clear clue as to whether or not this Georg Adam exists?  I see several vectors for confusion.  His name could be recorded differently in the records.  His records could have been corrupted or lost in the latter stages of the war.  The kill-claim may not be official (or corrupted by a grandson who isn't precise with numbers).  We may be looking at the wrong records or relying too much on secondary sources.

I work as a QA/Test manager, and see many many situations where requirements going from one cube to the next get corrupted in transmission.  The process varies, is totally unpreventable, and is in the end part of why I have a job.  So I have little trust for numbers or records.  They are usually wrong.  People pigeon-hole, skimp and generally take the easy way out (even Germans.  <g> ).

I'm also a historian with a specific interest in Byzantine history.  Ever try to get 'real' info on the Battle of Jabiya-Yarmuk?  If you did, the first thing you'd learn is that the Romano-Byzantines called the Yarmuk river the 'Hieromyax'.  Thus, to them, the Battle of Hieromyax.  It gets vague from there.  Lots of info on both side. Disagreeing.  Or using terms that mean different things.  Are copies of a copy.  Both sides are dead.  etc.

WWII history (which I've also studied) suffers from a wealth of 'information'.  The problem is that 98% of what you (the normal Barns&Noble historian, or even the person who went to school for it) read is secondary sources; that is, one guy read the original docs an made a translation or statement.  The 2% that is the original docs is still subject to all of the vagaries that make it likely that the post office does not really know where you live.  

You gotta start somewhere, but really folks, before you assume that someone who claims to have been there (1st or 3rd hand) is full of crap, try to keep in mind that the people keeping the records that survived at all were not much better about it than you are at work.  Except they were getting bombed.  

Thog

[RAM]

 

Originally posted by Thog:

You gotta start somewhere, but really folks, before you assume that someone who claims to have been there (1st or 3rd hand) is full of crap, try to keep in mind that the people keeping the records that survived at all were not much better about it than you are at work.  Except they were getting bombed.  

Thog

Thog, while I agree with you...more or less...remember this facts:

German aces on WWII is a WELL documented info, MORE if the ace pilot survived the war. If OSSI's grandpa survived the war and told him he had 76 kills how come he doesnt appear in any list?...

I dont believe in missing documents, German Ace list is a well documented thing...so I cant simply admit someone with 76 kills dissapears from those lists.

There is a lot of things that make me doubt about OSSI's post. Not only there is no Georg Adam anywhere (and if OSSI is german, raised in germany, its quite sure to assume that his Opa conserved his GERMAN name, not an adaptation to English), but the post itself ,as Westy says, seems redacted in an "forced bad" english...

Apart of that is the fact that he quotes 13mm MGs as assasin weapons...and AFAIK they were simple AP rounds...the lighter and smaller on their calibre in aerial gunnery.

And for last when he was asked for more info on his Opa he simply said again "Georg Eder, JG7, 76Kills". nothing more. He well could've extended in some explanations, but he said nothing.

IMO that is a troll post, and there is enuf data to think it is a troll.


P.S.:Easymo, even XIII century men had better morale than you. And you call WWII german aces nazis?...

look at the mirror,maybe you'll feel a desire to break it...there is a nazi there.


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-27-2000).]

[Kats]

Anyone notice that those who weren't involved, seem to harbor the most hate?

Yet those who actually fought can shake hands with their old enemy.

I come from a military family and one thing I can tell you for sure, we respect all soldiers from all countries that do their duty with honor. We are not politicians, we serve our country to which we were born.

[RAM]

OOOPS double post!

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-27-2000).]

[RAM]

Oh, BTW...

 

Originally posted by easymo:
Pyro. suppose the goals we fought for had been achived?  A free and democratic South Viet Nam.

and

 

Wab. A goal is something you strive for. Not something that exists

Yeah, Easymo...just as in Chile with General Pinochet, a guy supported by USA, a man who commited crimes against the humanity (judged by them or not).

Or maybe putting General Noriega in Panama?...because that was done with US assistance...

Maybe the Nicaraguan Contra sounds in your ears as something known?

If I dont recall bad, General Batista (dictator in Cuba in 1958, if you dont know it)was liked in USA, the fact he was a dictator not a democratic president mattered quite few, isnt it???

And what about Bahia de Cochinos? hundreds of cubans launched in a disastrous operation to a certain death, or to Castro's prisons and captivity. They were losers, so why should we worry about them?...better to forget about those poor losers isnt it?...and the fact they were launched and trained by US to be killed or captured doesnt matter either, of course.

And excuse me, had US won Vietnam War, south Vietnam government would have ruled like the Communist party did, on all vietnam. NO democracy here, but a NAZI (N-A-Z-I)dictatorship regime...supported by US forces.


So, let me guess...if everyone on this world shares your opinion on hating nazi regimes or hating losing forces:

Chile people must hate US.
Panama people must hate US.
Nicaragua people must hate US.
Vietnamese people must hate US.
Cuban people must hate US.

Not to talk about Uruguay and Argentina dictatorships supported by CIA...

Open your eyes ,easymo. You have them tight closed.

[Macchi]

I know Ossi is from the eastern part of germany. So it would be normal he has big problems with english because they learned russian as the 2nd language in school and not english like we in our western part.
Can't say more about him.
Easymo, your postings are showing very clear what an short minded political idiot you are.
You may want to contact -bobn- over there in Warbirds. Seems you both are brothers in mind  

Lem

[RAM]

OSSI just put this link on WWIIOL board:


http://www.stormbirds.com/werknummer/db.cgi?db=default&uid=default&WerkNummer=&Model=&Factory=&Date=&Unit=JG+7&Pilot=georg+adam&Factory_Code=&Unit_Code=&Callsign=&References=&   keyword=&sb=---&so=ascend&mh=25&view_records=Search
 

Seems the link is too long to fit into UBB code...to access it simply copy and paste it...the URL works fine.(of course it is the part between http:// and not incliding them  


That link lists a Me262 lost when piloted by Georg Adam...the callsign of the plane was "Red 13"...is that the "lucky 13"?

All this is VERY strage...I dont want to put BS on OSSI's word and I am VERY interested...but still if Major Eder died in 1986...how come he CAN test WWIIOL???

Dunno...really I dont believe that Georg-Peter Eder is that "Georg Adam"...but that links and the "red 13" callsign...

weird
 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-27-2000).]

[Wardog]

This thread has gotten way outa hand. It started off about a pilot in WWII who was still alive and able to tell some facts about his flying experience and was quickly turn into a BS political arena!!!!!

I have great admiration for pilots from both Axis & Allied sides who at 18 to 20 years of age had to jump into the cockpit of an aircraft for the sole purpose of taking another plane outa the sky. This was not there choice but the choice of there respective Goverments. I am pretty damn sure that they would have rather been out gettin drunk & doing what most of us had done as teenagers.

The fact that there are still a few pilots still around to relate stories & other Aircraft info facinates me to no end.

You guys have managed to take this small fact and turn it into a political argument.

I am very dissapointed in the lot of you!

Dog out.........

[Yosus]

Wardog, you're right ... to a point  .
Peope are political creatures, no one can change that, and when someone makes a comment that is coloured by extreme prejudice, we should speak up against it ... if that is our belief.
However, I too am fascinated by the deeds of men and women in conflict ... which ironically happens when the talking and the politiking stop  .
I think people learn from each other, and that happens even on this BBS. It is through talking through these issues that eventually some form of tolerance might come to light.
In my view, this is as important as finding out the details pertaining to Georg Peter Eder.

Respectfully
Yosus

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'One day, flight simulation will be so realistic, that you'll need to wear brown corduroy'
Phoenix Squadron.

[Duckwing6]

Oh and Btw folks .. ADAM is a common german name.. so why whould someone called EDER (another common name) change that to ADAM or vice versa ..

DW6

[Vati66]

Gentlemen,

        Maybe his grandfather exagerated?  Proud men with strong egos are prone to exageration.  I'm not saying this is the case,  but the old man may have done just that to build himself up in the eyes of his grandchild.   To OSSI , he is a hero and this is what the old man wanted.   Just a posability.  

Vati

[RAM]

OSSI just sent me some pics of his Granddad..

Damnit fer sure he had a RitterKreutz!!

I dont know what to say...a Knights's Cross in the neck of a pilot means he is an ace...but I dont see him in any list!...

I am starting to believe him,tho. This, fer sure is no troll.

The photos are up in the WWIIol forum


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 07-27-2000).]

[pzvg]

So every German who wore feldgrau is a Nazi? hmm remind me to relate that fact to my Opa when I get where he went,pretty sure it was up.
Just a few easily dismissed facts FYI,
Nazi meant National Socialist Party a politcal organization much like democrats,republicans,Labour,Etc,etc,ad nausem
One could be a serving member of the German military without joining the Nazi party
My Opa was a 50 something reservist NCO who fought in the first world war, who was recalled to active duty in '43
I am in the Inactive Ready Reserve of the United States Army, while I think that Bill Clinton is without a doubt the lowest form of life since protozoa, if recalled to duty today, I would in fact, go.
Why? it's simple Duty,Honor,Country
They use different words in different militaries around the world and through time, but it all boils down to the old,"Here lies a soldier of Rome, who did his duty,Honor him"
If anyone had accused my Opa of being a nazi, I'm pretty sure the lovable old guy would have strangled them to death on the spot.
If you cannot see that soldiers do as soldiers do, then you are beyond hope, totally lost to the stupid notions of ignorance and intolerence, a shinig example of the nation we have become,not the one we once were.
There will always be a wall, time will tell if there are any left with the courage to stand upon it.

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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"

[danish]

Hmmm still think there is something fishy about this.

A Georg Adam is presented as having 76 confirmed kills, and the Knights Cross.Pictures are shown with KC + Oakleaves, and apparently younger with KC.

Still he is not listed in "Die Ritterkreutztraeger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945" - the standart bible.Plus as apex points out he is not on the very thourough "Fighter Pilot 'Ace' List".

In short: no.


danish