Author Topic: Padlocked View System  (Read 315 times)

Offline Yeager

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Padlocked View System
« on: July 27, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »
Hmmm......never really considered this as an potentiol addition to AH.  Seems I recall HT some time ago saying this wasnt really an option.  Now, Pyro has devised a unique way to impliment it.  

I wont take the easy path and declare AH some sort of childs game as a result of padlock.  Instead I will consider how my eyes would track a target across a 3D cockpit, lose the target through obstructions, while I continue using my standard view panning to maintain SA.

Hmmm......implimented correctly this could really add a new level of immersion to the sim.

Im thinking how I use padlock in Falcon4, MigAlley, Longbow2, EAW just to name a few and online too.

Come to think of it, although I will hold back my critques before I even try the damn thing, I am excited about the possibilties.

Yeager

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[This message has been edited by Yeager (edited 07-27-2000).]
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Offline Revvin

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Padlocked View System
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2000, 12:47:00 PM »
As I pointed out in Miko's thread the padlock system will enhance the immersion factor, did RL WW2 Aces have a top hat to move their heads to track a con? until the advent of cheap VR headset then the padlock system is the closest we'll get for now. Pyro's explanation of the system is quite clear and it does'nt appear its going to be a crutch of any sort for newbies, infact it may cost them dearly as they get target fixation and get blasted by an unseen con.

The smug elitist are already posting cynical views here and on AGW but are these same elitist players going to get AH and WB to remove the perfect '6' view from their sims? did RL pilots have the ability to snap turn their heads 180 degree's? not all planes had mirrors and certainly mirrors did not give such perfect views. Personally I don't know if I will use the padlock system as I'm set in my ways now using my stick mapped to manually pan but I will give the padlock system a go while the elitist's can sit in their other sim wiggling their thumbs  

Offline JimBear

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« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2000, 12:56:00 PM »
Don't know if I am excited by it. It will be just another tool to use, or not. I cant say anything about the "elitist"  but having spent the last 9 months learning this view system, I admit to a little chagrin in hearing that Pad will be in. Came from a game that had pad and really dont miss it. Though Lord knows (and HTC) this sounds on the face of it to be a much better implimentation  

Offline Badger

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Padlocked View System
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2000, 01:14:00 PM »
If the "padlock" view system works as I've seen it described by Pyro and Hitech, then I think it sounds highly innovative and could be an excellent transition tool for new customers from other on-line flight sim products.  It doesn't sound to me like it's going to kill the world as we know it, but rather enhance it, as does the "auto takeoff" feature currently available.  I don't see a huge lynch mob out there trying to get that function removed from the current code?

IMHO let's see it operate, assess it, then pass comment.  I'm sure if it proves to have a negative impact on revenue streams, then Hitech will disable it.

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Offline Kats

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« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2000, 01:32:00 PM »
I don't think a lock should be broken unless it is obstructed for more than two seconds. If the target becomes unobstructed before two seconds, the lock should hold.

This is how real combat pilots are trained. they are trained not to take their eyes of a talley for more than 2 seconds and that they can reaquire confidently under that two second mark.

Offline jedi

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« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2000, 02:03:00 PM »
The other point, along the lines of Kats' point, is if the real pilot DOES lose sight of the con, his eyes don't snap back to the front view, the way most "broken locks" do now.  You know what section of the sky to scan, and you scan it until you reacquire.  Similarly, if you decide to glance down to check your altitude (no HUD in WW2 planes) you KNOW where to look to reacquire the target.  You don't have to manually manipulate views to "re-lock" that target.

It'll be interesting to see how the "lost lock" or "intentional glance away" problem is handled.  That's the place where ALL the other padlocks I've seen become worthless IMO.  They're great when you're padlocked and tracking.  They're totally bogus when you perform a normal pilot function or have your target MOMENTARILY obscured.



[This message has been edited by jedi (edited 07-27-2000).]

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2000, 03:11:00 PM »
EAW's lock was too strong, but glancing away, e.g. forward or at instruments, and then releasing the glance caused the view to snap back to the target.  Which, depending on your settings, would either have a red box around it or not (I flew without, and even with the padlock it could be hard to find the bandit in the ground clutter).

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Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2000, 03:22:00 PM »
Jedi

That's right...if a RL pilot has to leave the tally for whatever reason, he knows where to come back to. How well the pilot reacquires the bandit is stricly a function of experience...the experienced pilot finishes his in-cockpit task and then comes back to the outside view with a mental projection of where the bandit should be. The inexperienced pilot tries to do this also but often is less successful.

As far as RL training goes, nothing is stipulated as to how long a pilot should take his eyes off the bandit. This is strictly a matter of experience and the particular situation at hand...this 'time' could vary from 0 seconds to several, depending on the predictability of the bandit.

I'm looking forward to the AH padlock. From what we've learned so far, it sounds like HTC has done a good job at building it.

One thing I haven't heard discussed is the inclusion of any inflight parameters such as speed and G. Past padlocks have tried a number of ways to present this data to the pilot...some more successfully than others.

There are those that think such an info presentation on a padlock screen is 'unrealistic'. I disagree. In the jets that I flew, there were tactile cues that helped us retain an idea of our energy state while turning and burning with our heads out of the cockpit. Simple cues could be included in a sim padlock that would help achieve the same thing. For example, a vertical moving bar on each side of the monitor...one for G and one for speed. The pilot usually does not need an altitude cue...the ground provides that. These cue bars could be made an option for those that want to turn them off.

The other cue that I would like to see in the padlock view is the location of the lift vector. In this regard, other sims have provided lift lines to help the pilot orient himself.

One thing for sure...we'll probably have some interesting threads to read for awhile!

BTW, for the newbies out there who find this padlock debate a mystery, I suggest they might want to read the 'Perspectives' and Padlock articles in the Air Combat Corner at SimHQ. These articles present an explanation of padlock and how it is used. The Padlock article discusses the relative merits of the Janes and Flanker padlock techniques. The Perspective article argues the merits of the padlock versus external view and uses RL examples of why one is better than the other.

Andy

dbcooper

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« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2000, 04:21:00 PM »
 
 With auto takeoff I can takeoff and chug a brew at the same time...good for moral.  

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2000, 04:59:00 PM »
Like most of you; I've seen a varitey of padlock systems over the years; and like anything else, to use them well; you need a lot of experience with them... and good SA from jump street.

Our current view system works just fine for me.. I don't often lose a guy unless we're in a no icon enviornment. As it is now, keepin an eye on the other guy I think is a matter of experience and joystick hat setups. The better the sick; the more hats... the better your ability to keep him boxed in your views. A padlock enhancement to the current view system oughta be a great bonus... especilly to those that don't have the advantage of sophisticated sticks with lotsa hats.

Andy's points on the speed and g load cues in the padlock view would be a welcome addition.. though I usually use the canopy bars; dash top and horizon to stay oriented in this sim now.. and rarely 'look down' to verify speed and such on the dash in a fight. Normally I got my eyes riveted on the bandit anyway.  

Can't wait to try it.. it'll definitly be an enhancement.. something that brand W and AW don't have.  

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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2000, 05:08:00 PM »
Hm, maybe I have become an oldschool elitist.

I come from EAW, and there not being a padlock here I considered a major minus.

But, as I learned the sim, the more and more I appreciated the fact that keeping an enemy in sight was a consequence of *my* skills, not some computer aided help that simplifies things.

Of course, it is too easy to say now how it will work. If any implementation of a padlock system will work, my money is on HTC. Still with this in mind, unless there are some drawbacks (like in MiG Alley - target fixation), there will be an benefit that us elitist purists will not use - reduced taskload.

How much of an edge will it give a pilot? It is ahrd to say. Much easier to say is "then use it yourself". Unfortunately, for some purists, myself included, that is not an option. While Andy eloquently argued why he doesn't consider it a cheat, I an unable to see it that way.

Still, it would allow newbies an easier time, and would give people with joysticks lacking 300 buttons *equal playing field*.

I guess I am undecided, since there are so many variables and perspectives. But in the end, my general skeptical attitude shines through. I will be interested and openminded, but will not expect a panacea solution that has little or no complications.



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Offline Skuzzy

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Padlocked View System
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2000, 06:29:00 PM »
Well, and I hope I am not steppin on any toes at HTC, think of this new padlock as an augmentation of the current view system.

The current system will function as always, and will override the padlock.

As I understand it, from the way Pyro and HT have said, the padlock will only operate, when a target is selected AND if the target is in view.  

If you have padlock on and a target, and you manually turn away and lose view of the target, then you have to manually reaquire view before the padlock will function again.

I also seem to remember when the target is lost your view does not change unless you manually change it (I may be in error).

The padlock does not snap your view around either.  It operates just like the manual view system, but it is done for you.

Everyone needs to just sit back and wait to see it.  I think most will find it to be a great addition to the current system.  As a matter of fact, I really cannot see why anyone would not like it.

It is very subtle and will really only help new people learn the view system faster.  It really is an ingenius system.



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Sorrow[S=A]

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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2000, 06:36:00 PM »
Andy- I think the idea for a "G" indicator would be nice- but speed and lift line stuff probably will not happen. HTC said that all views will still work normally in padlock..  so you will still use your hat to check horizon and cockpit clues for what attitude your plane is at- an amazingly good idea I think. And speed is same thing- you will probably just have to push forward to snap your head to front view for a second and look at your instruments.

BTW guys from what HTC said about it the whole broken lock thing is not that harsh to me, when you can't see the plane your locked to it stays in the view you last saw it until it reaquires. Thus if a bar is in the way it will pick it up again or if it moves to far a flip through the views will reaquire it when you see it.