Random Euro thoughts on Iraq

[csThor]

However, my point was that the deeper scars do not come from concrete buildings, but from loss of family to the war and how it affects that family. My one example was that 50-years later you could not buy a great uncle of mine anything Japenese, his feelings from the war were that strong. These things run deep.

I beg to differ. Do you know the name "Oranienburg" ? Itīs a middle-sized town northeast of Berlin. In WW2 it was a center of german ammunitions production and so the US/UK bombed it regularly. In fact so regularly, that today - 60 years after that whole mess - there are still evacuations because of new duds being found with frightening regularity. All in all it is estimated that Germany will not be free from the last remnants of WW2 duds for the next two generations.

Feelings like those you described can only last for the lifetime of those who experienced them. Unfortunately those duds today endanger people who didnīt live when they were dropped on the ammo factories.

[Puke]

You for sure, like us, have memories about relatives dead serving your country, but (Pearl apart), you did'nt have memories of your father, as a child, in the arms of his mother, earing the whistle of the bombs falling each fu...ing day and night for 3-4-5 years of your life, the soldiers... ENEMY soldiers, entering in your house and shooting your brother, or stealing everything, or raping even your little sister, the experience to be starved near to death, and cook your own shoes to taste something in the dirty hot water spilled from the last rain.

So this was typical in Italy?  

So what lead to those ugly events?  Chamberlain was wrong and is still wrong.  

For example, just imagine 1-2 even 3 WTC a day for a year, AND no food, no water, no electricity, no money....

We have imagined it.  And okay, so Europe has been through bombings...do you get a medal or a dunce-cap?  Unlike the world of the 30's, we will do something to ensure it doesn't get to this point.  Make no mistake, we are at war via proxy.  Al Quaida has publicly stated it is at war with us.  By our pretending they are not a threat does not make them go away.  Many of the fundamentalists are willing to die to bring ruin to the "West" with the USA their prime target.  This threat actually includes Europe in the crosshairs.  And don't think Saddam wouldn't like to see the West fall, but he knows better than to do it overtly when he can arm and train a few thousand fanaticals.  It's time for Europe to wake up.  But I can see we are alone in this, Europe would rather put its head in the sand and remind itself of the horrors a madman can bring about and gamble that when it raises its head again that all is safe.

My point wasn't a tit-for-tat about who suffered most, but more about we still have deep wounds here in the USA and that I think Europeans really do not realize this...memories that are very much real and impact our families to this day.  So your point about how badly Europe was bombed in WW2 is for or against removing Saddam from power?  War is being mobilzed against us, it's a matter of time now.

(I really shouldn't read the O-club at 1 a.m. before going to bed...where's the Disney forum?)

In WW2 it was a center of german ammunitions production and so the US/UK bombed it regularly. In fact so regularly, that today - 60 years after that whole mess - there are still evacuations because of new duds being found with frightening regularity. -Thor

That's a bit different than a concrete reminder, because you are talking about the same thing I'm talking about...that the actual DEATHS that occur in a family from the war have a longer lasting effect than a concrete bunker...and I'd guess (just guessing) most wouldn't even know the origins of many WW2 sites.  If anything, I'd think these sites would remind you of the terror of letting a sadistic leader go uncheck.  But yes, even here in San Diego (namely, TierraSanta, which was an old WW2 weapons range) kids are digging up unexploded ordnance in the hills.  I also pass by Camp Kearny (Miramar Airfield...old Topgun) all the time which was where F4Fs flew and trained for WW2.  I could name more.  We do have our reminders, but they don't cut as deeply as the stories of loss during the war.  Maybe to contrast it another way and to a different time, I literally grew up under "Battle Mountain", a landmark from the Spanish/American War where the troops had to eat their mules to survive...or something like that.  I would climb the landmark most days before school, but it didn't impact me what it was because I have no relations that I'm aware of that participated.  But I used to see my grandfathers who fought in the war, one of which never got over the war and the loss of his brother.  Yes, I was reminded a lot of WW2 in that way and just how ugly it was.

[StSanta]

Alright Wabbit, I misunderstood. Took at as directed at me.

My main points basically were that our civilian population suffered a lot - more than the Americans - and that there are physical reminders of it.

The Germans leading the country today probably had fathers etc that either fought in the war, contributed or died in it. SO bad conscience together with huge loss. And the experience of growing up in a country utterly devastated and destroyed, having to be rebuilt.

But still, that'd be excuses to me in a way. Germanys history would, to me, mean they're MORE obligated to fight such tyranny elsewhere than is the US.

And Frances position on Turkey defense is hard to understand.

I'd prefer an assassination of Saddam to a war. I believe the consequences of a war can be FAR more dire than the average supporter of the war thinks.

Perhaps people think it'll  be the same as the first Gulf war. It won't. The political and military situation is very different. So it must be handled correctly, and I am not sure Bush, who is rather uncompromising, has the delicate hands to do so. We'll see though.

[Staga]

How many of you yanks have been spending summers at your grandparents home in the country?
I'd like to do that too but for some reason I'm not interested to travel to the (now russian) Carelia.

How many of your parents had to hide in the woods when they were evacuated because enemy fighters and bombers were shooting anything they saw moving?

How many of you can still see buildings made of bricks where some of the bricks are little different colour because they were repaired after bombings?


In U.S only soldiers suffered because the war; in europe it was whole population.

just my 5 cents.

[Eagler]

StSanta

if you find a mk108 30mm shell laying around your war relics, send it my way - got a 20mm already

[straffo]

How many of you American guys have diged in your garden to find :

1st some german grenades
2nd a loaded mauser K98
3rd the owner of this junk ?

I've done it in my cousin garden ...

[Ping]

Damn..can I have the K98
Im starting to collect military rifles, I have an M91/59 so far

[Eagler]

Originally posted by straffo
How many of you American guys have diged in your garden to find :

1st some german grenades
2nd a loaded mauser K98
3rd the owner of this junk ?

I've done it in my cousin garden ...

all we find here is crap the builder was too lazy to haul away

that side of it would be cool

the grassed over bomb craters in a field near where we lived in tynemouth was neat to see in 72. I'm sure when they were created during BOB it wouldn't have been so neat

[Fishu]

To americans, all these things are "cool" .. "neat" .. etc.

I think the point is easily seen.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Fishu
To americans, all these things are "cool" .. "neat" .. etc.

I think the point is easily seen.

just like its cool and neat to find Civil War relics in the fields of Va.

doesn't make the conflict "cool & neat" just the relics and the collection/discovery of them ...

[Naso]

Originally posted by Puke
So this was typical in Italy?  

Yes, almost typical (with the exception of the powerfull people and the "cooperators" )

So what lead to those ugly events?  Chamberlain was wrong and is still wrong.  

 
We have imagined it.  And okay, so Europe has been through bombings...do you get a medal or a dunce-cap?  Unlike the world of the 30's, we will do something to ensure it doesn't get to this point.  Make no mistake, we are at war via proxy.  Al Quaida has publicly stated it is at war with us.  By our pretending they are not a threat does not make them go away.  Many of the fundamentalists are willing to die to bring ruin to the "West" with the USA their prime target.  This threat actually includes Europe in the crosshairs.  And don't think Saddam wouldn't like to see the West fall, but he knows better than to do it overtly when he can arm and train a few thousand fanaticals.  It's time for Europe to wake up.  But I can see we are alone in this, Europe would rather put its head in the sand and remind itself of the horrors a madman can bring about and gamble that when it raises its head again that all is safe.

You are going away, sign that you missed the point, or just needed to follow your rail.

My point wasn't a tit-for-tat about who suffered most, but more about we still have deep wounds here in the USA and that I think Europeans really do not realize this...memories that are very much real and impact our families to this day.

It's not a tit-for tat (nice expression, never heard before ), my point was to let you understand the main difference not in quantity, but in quality of the sufferings.

The difference is in the fact that one thing is that your dad leave for war and did'nt come back, and you miss him a lot, or he come back with ugly memories, but you, your mother, your sister, your little brother, stay home with all the conforts, while your father fight the war.
A whole different matter is a war that it's there, out of your door, the bullets enter in your windows, you hide under a table screaming for fear while the world around get crazy and you are 5 years old!

[quotes]
 So your point about how badly Europe was bombed in WW2 is for or against removing Saddam from power?  War is being mobilzed against us, it's a matter of time now.[/quote]

Oh my God, it's so difficult for an American today to focalyze on a question without throwing in the fediddleing Saddam and OBL??

If you for a moment just listen, i bet you will see the point.

(I really shouldn't read the O-club at 1 a.m. before going to bed...where's the Disney forum?)

 
That's a bit different than a concrete reminder, because you are talking about the same thing I'm talking about...that the actual DEATHS that occur in a family from the war have a longer lasting effect than a concrete bunker...

It's out of discussion that every single country had this experience of relatives leaving home to fight a war, and lot of them never come back, or come back changed forever.

The example you are posting are good reminders, but not of the same type.

All the reminders US have, even in the pain of their families, are related to a war fought THERE, with the survivors returned HOME

In Europe THERE was HOME

Our parents HOUSE was the frigging BATTLEFIELD!!!

And, please, the point is not who is guilty, or if we have to do the same on Iraq.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Hangtime
"my emotional national psyche scars are more pronounced than yours.."

"are not!!"

"are too!!"

"not!"

"too!"



gentlemen.. we quibble details.

war sucks. we know it, they know it.

lets all hope the fellas playing with the pens and buttons know it.

I hope you understand that my point was'nt a noodle contest.

Was just pointing the fact that the scars are different, not bigger, different.

[Toad]

I think this thread has turned into a measurement contest, mostly.

No one wants to have to go to war. Not in Europe, not in the US.

Does anyone think the families of US servicemen already deployed to the Gulf are  in the least bit happy about this?

OTOH, while it's true the US countryside hasn't been "under fire" basically since Pearl Harbor, it's also true that no US citizen wants that to happen here now, either.

9/11 removed the idea of "invulnerability" if ever we had it after the facts of the Cold War. People here now know it CAN be just like it was in Europe.

As a result, they'd rather try to solve the problem as far away from here as possible. A normal reaction, don't you think? Especially given the lessons learned by all in Europe in both WW1 & WW2. I speak here both of the "death and destruction" aspect because, after all, Europe basically had to be rebuilt AND of the failure of appeasement and looking the other way.

9/11 convinced the US citzens that they have serious enemies that are not going to go away. So, I believe the national consensus is that it is better to go after them on their own territory than fight them on ours. Sure, there's going to be debate on who to go after and when, but I doubt there's anyone that wants to wait till they show up here with WMD or other weapons..... like airliners.

I'm not surprised at the decision to remove Hussein. At this time, I don't support the action for several reasons but I know that at the end of the day, the World, the Gulf region, the Iraqis and the US will ALL be better off with him out of power.

In the same vein, I know that North Korea will be dealt with next. I think Kim made a huge error and, at the present time, I think the US is handling it superbly.

Kim used his nukes as a ploy to generate more aid and now it has backfired. I think he assumed the US would come running with more food and probably money, eager to dialogue this problem away. Sort of like before.

I think he's suprised we're not even interested in talking to him about it until he puts his nukes away again. Foolishly, he's racheted up the rhetoric to the point that Japan, a pacifist nation in the present world, has threatened force against him. That alone should clue him in, but it hasn't.

He's going to end up with his little ploy before the Security Council without the US saying or doing anything. He'll be arguing with the very people that can't or won't give him what he wants.

So, he'll either have to back down or make good on his threat of war. If he choose war, it will be square in the lap of the UN, not the US.

I'd say "perfect". Because the Japanese are already willing to lead the way on that UN debate. And given their WW2 history in the area, the UN will HAVE to do something.

Like I said, very well done, so far.

All the US needs to do is hold the present course and the NK crisis will resolve without us really getting involved.

[muckmaw]

One thing I missed in your thread starter, Santa.

England suffered greatly during WWII. From the Blitz, to the very end when V1's and V2's killed thousands of civilians at random.

I would venture to say England suffered as much as any European nation in WWII, and yet what is their stance?

They are just as steadfast in their belief that the time for inspections is over, and the time for action has come.

So what's different between the experience of the English and the French in WWII, that is coloring their opinions of the current situation.

[Naso]

Originally posted by Toad
I think....

Pretty reasonable post, and almost completely agreable, for me.

You know?

I place my bet that US will leave to China and maybe Japan the pleasure to eat NK.

Just a feeling, an intuition... we'll see.

Strange... I am agreeing with you...

calling mental care..