Author Topic: CH vs Cougar ?  (Read 1917 times)

Offline Revvin

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CH vs Cougar ?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2003, 05:47:11 AM »
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I am really really trying to be objective again with TM. But it is getting harder


You only have yourself to blame due to your behaviour on their forums.

Offline GunnerCAF

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CH vs Cougar ?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2003, 10:06:30 AM »
I pre-ordered my Cougar and have had if for just under a year now.  I have no problems with pots.  There is play around the center, and it is not an issue with me.  The play is the area at the center before the springs kick in.  I am a long time TM user, and I have had a chance to try the CH and the X45 that friends have.  I think the Cougar is the best high end joystick available.

I enjoy programming the stick.  It comes with all the software tools inclulding a GUI program for assigning buttons if your not into this. Here are a few things I did, that I don't think is possible with any other stick:

 Auto Hide the cursor
 Turn off film after each flight
 Radio Tuner
 Dial for calibration of level bomb sights
 Custom views with a flip of a switch
 Hold vehicle throttle to full with a press of a button

There has been problem with ordering spare parts, but it looks like they have fixed this, or are working on it.  I have a FLCS/TQS that I still use.  I upgraded to the digital chips.  I just replaced a had switch.  I ordered on-line at TM on a Sunday, I had the parts in hand Tuesday when I came home from work.  This stick is about 6 years old and has the origional pots, never been cleaned and no spiking.

The Cougar is not for everyone.  I think Doberman's post was a well done comparison.  I will add this:

Don't buy a Cougar if:

  If you can't afford it

  If you have a habit of dropping expensive computer components

  You plan to use it as a socker ball

  You have still have shag carpet

:)

Gunner
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Offline Hristo

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CH vs Cougar ?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2003, 01:17:54 PM »
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Originally posted by Revvin
You only have yourself to blame due to your behaviour on their forums.
 

Yup, I was annoyed by wishful thinking of how so perfect the Cougar will be and rightly pissed with Nutty's arrogance about pot issues. While calling me uneducated, he explained that higher resolution pots would solve the jitter. Ehh, right ;). Anyone who disagreed with him back then got flamed by cheerleading crowd.

10 months later Nutty admitted I was right, since his Cougar "...is missbehaving...". That was his personal reply to me. Along with the lines that he was told different pots would be put in the Cougar, than the ones you can find in it right now.

Anyway, it might be that for Cougar there are different standards. And rightly so. If it costs 3x the Saitek costs, it should be 3x or so times better, eh ? What is normal for Saitek should be an alarming error in Cougar, IMO.

IMO, they didn't fix the real issue, instead they added and fiddled with unnecessary features. I'd be happier if Cougar had 1 hat, 4 buttons, plastic housing and HAL pots.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2003, 01:26:47 PM by Hristo »

Offline Revvin

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« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2003, 01:37:52 PM »
You were arrogant and offensive well before James ever mentioned education and that was only in reply to comments made by you. James has always behaved like a gentleman on those forums as has Frugal despite continued abuse from forum users like yourself and now you cry foul.

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2003, 01:45:11 PM »
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If it costs 3x the Saitek costs, it should be 3x or so times better, eh ?


Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.  The extra money went for hoopty realistic looks, "rugged metal construction" and a juicy profit margin for a company repackaging a 10 year old product and raping the huddled sim masses.  :)

Offline Hristo

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« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2003, 02:09:26 PM »
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Originally posted by Revvin
You were arrogant and offensive well before James ever mentioned education and that was only in reply to comments made by you. James has always behaved like a gentleman on those forums as has Frugal despite continued abuse from forum users like yourself and now you cry foul.


Yup, I was. But time has proven I was right.

James' politeness isn't enough. Cougar has issues. Issues as old as TM sticks are. It is probably better than F22, but not what I hoped for.

If you search through archives of sim forums thru recent  years, you'd have "pot" word jump straight to top. At least for TM sticks. Which might as well mean that everything else was OK.

Now I don't get it. TM knew about pot issue. We all knew how unreliable F22 pots were. And what did TM do ? Hope that USB would solve everything.

Why else would HAL mod be available if there wasn't pot issue ?

Offline Doberman

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« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2003, 02:22:31 PM »
My CH stuff has been on a backup computer that I really don't do any flying on for a while now.   Still with the older version of the control software.  Upon hearing Funkedup's notice that there's new programming software available for it, I checked it out.

A cursory look seems to show that it's as fully featured (or GASP! maybe even more so) as the TM Cougar's FOXY programming language.  

On first glance though, it seemed even less intuitive than the TM stuff (and that's hard to do. :) ).  

Hafta play with it a bit more to see what it's capable of.

Even if it's the equal of FOXY, I'd STILL pick the Cougar. :)  The community is there to help you with any minor problems you may have.  And as I've said before, the "Cool" factor is through the roof.

Offline SOB

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« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2003, 02:48:34 PM »
Hristo, it's nice that you could simplify the whole issue like that, but it's not that simple.  The control issues that plagued the F22 involved several factors, one of which was the potentiometers.  Not the fact that they were pots, and not the fact that the design of the pots themselves was bad, but a problem that lied in the manufacturing process at the company who produced them.

This being a fact, it is reasonable that whoever was in charge of making the decision to use pots in the Cougar, decided to use pots of a higher quality from a different manufacturer.

Furthermore, USB CAN be a solution for a spikey pots.  Spikes are momentary jumps in resistance values coming from the pots.  Momentary, as in fractions of a second.  Unfortunately, a game port will read these spikes and respond accordingly.  However, since the values coming from the stick are polled several times a second, these erronious values can be filtered out before being sent to the computer.  With a game port stick, this means extra electronics in the stick to intercept the pot signal before it is sent to the game port.  With a USB stick, this already occurs since a digital signal is sent down the USB line.  You simply need to impliment an algorithym that filters out the unwanted values that deviate from a reasonable rate of rise or fall of values coming from the pot.  Unfortunately, it seems the new TM did not impliment anything like this on the Cougar.  One further benefit of the USB port that the Cougar benefits from by default is the simple fact that the IBM-spec game port is and always has been a horribly designed interface which in itself can cause any or all of the problems seen as "pot problems".

As in the F22, I'm sure there are several things in the Cougar that could contribute to shaky control issues, including the pots.  Just rattling off that it must be the pots, because pots are bad is not valid.

On the other hand, there has been a stigma going back as long as I can remember that pots = spikes & control issues, so I agree with you that the new TM should have used something besides pots the Cougar, even if it upped the retail price of the unit.  I just agree for different reasons.  People with experience tend to hate pots...the Cougar is a high-end product that's going to be bought by enthusiasts with previous experience with joysticks...use something else.

To your original question: It sounds like a gamble on whether or not your Cougar could have control issues.  From what I've read, it will almost certainly have some play around the center, either from the start or from the break-in period.  If play is something you can't stand (i can't), it can be fixed, but at additional cost out of pocket.  As far as I'm concerned, the Cougar is worth its retail cost, plus the cost of getting the guts re-worked and installing the HAL sensors.  You may not agree, but be aware that it's something you may have to deal with you buy one.  So you know, I'm still using the stock pots, without issues.


SOB
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Offline bigUC

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« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2003, 02:58:03 PM »
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Originally posted by funkedup
Here ya go:


So much for "rugged metal construction".  :)


This is actually a good thing, as the internals now can be easily cleaned or replaced :)
Kurt is winking at U!

Offline Doberman

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« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2003, 03:20:22 PM »
I used an F-16 & WCSII combo for YEARS without any pot problems.  I've had my Cougar for about a year with no pot problems.  So, AFAIC, pots are fine.  I have considered the HAL mod simply to make it more precise, though the stock setup has all of the precision I've needed.

Yes, my Cougar has about a millimeter of play in both axis' at the base of the stick.  So what?  I don't notice it AT ALL when actually USING the stick.  Sure I can wiggle it just a touch, but it has absolutely no effect on gameplay.  My CH USB Fighterstick Pro has at least as much play in the X axis.   I've heard some complaints about the play in the axis', but I've yet to hear ANYONE who actually claims it effects their gameplay.

Offline Revvin

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« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2003, 03:26:41 PM »
Hristo you knew nothing of the pot composition or the manufacturer of those pots you made a few irrational posts and guessed there would be a problem, well I tell ya what I guess the world is going to end one day and perhaps if we stick around long enough you'll see I was right too :rolleyes:

Based on their tests TM had faith in the pots or in your own little world do you really believe TM used sub standard pots purposely to scam the sim playing customers out there of their hard earned cash?

Offline funkedup

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« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2003, 04:45:47 PM »
This is getting a little snippy.  I should clarify that everything after my post about the new Control Manager is basically BS, just intended to have some fun with SOB and Revvin and the other metal phallus worshippers.  :)

Offline SOB

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« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2003, 05:18:44 PM »
Yeah right Funked...we all know you're still obsessing about my schlong.  :p


SOB
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Offline Revvin

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« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2003, 06:05:40 PM »
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I should clarify that everything after my post about the new Control Manager is basically BS


Odd I thought it was everything up to and including your last post was BS :p as for Hristo I should have known better, he's just returning to type

Offline GunnerCAF

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« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2003, 10:16:47 PM »
Does CH have any on-line community like at Cougar World?  I had some questions when helping a freind set up his new CH Fighterstick and I could not find an official or fan run message boards.

Gunner
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