Pyro please look at these numbers for the FW-190D9

[AGJV44_Rot 1]

Finally found the problem with the Dora.  Dora’s climb rate and speeds are 2 different sets.  Given the current top speed and climb for the Dora they match up with a different set of power settings.  With the current top speed we have the Dora is using B4 fuel with MW50 a deck speed of 377-78 and a top speed at alt of 429-30 which looks to be the case according to the charts by HTC.  This is chart number 4 in column 2.  Now according to the climb chart which HTC provides the Dora would have to have been using this setting 1-Sonder-Notleistung / Special Emergency to achieve it. This is chart number 1 in column 1.  According to this chart the setting HTC is using for climb is Special Emergency, for performance HTC is using Sonder - Notleistung (B4) mit Laderdruckerhoehung mit MW50 u. 1.8ata.  2 Different settings for performance.  Why is this?  If we were to have the same power setting for climb then why can’t it have the same power setting for performance?  This may not seem like much but according to these settings the speeds would be drastically different giving a top speed of 438 mph at 18000 feet and a deck speed of 382, according to the power setting.  I have not included all of the speeds but you can find them here at this location http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/Dora.htm These numbers are taken from a chart produced by Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau G.M.B.H dated March 11, 1945  

 
If this means lowering the env value I am all for it to make sure it is correct.

Steigleistungen
1-Sonder-Notleistung / Special Emergency
2-Start-und-Notleistung / Takeoff and Emergency
3-Steig und Kampfleistung / Climb and combat
4.Hoechstzul. Dauerleistung / Power for best endurance
Settings for climb use column 1

Horizontalgeschwindigkeiten
1 - Start - u Notleistung (B4) -- Take off/Emergency                                                                                                              
2 - Sonder - Notleistung (C3) /Special Emergency
3 - Sonder - Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor (Special Emergency with Compressor as Base-Engine)                    
4 - Sonder - Notleistung (B4) mit Laderdruckerhoehung mit MW50 u. 1.8ata.
Settings for true air speed use column 2

Steigleistungen
Column 1
Altitude   Power Setting & feet per minute
ft   1   2   3   4
0   4,331   3,563   3,071   2,343
328   4,328   3,558   3,069   2,337
656   4,325   3,554   3,066   2,332
984   4,322   3,549   3,064   2,326
1,312   4,319   3,545   3,062   2,321
1,640   4,316   3,540   3,059   2,315
1,969   4,313   3,536   3,057   2,310
2,297   4,309   3,531   3,054   2,304
2,625   4,306   3,527   3,052   2,299
2,953   4,303   3,522   3,050   2,293
3,281   4,300   3,518   3,047   2,288
3,609   4,297   3,513   3,045   2,282
3,937   4,294   3,509   3,043   2,277
4,265   4,291   3,504   3,040   2,271
4,593   4,236   3,499   3,038   2,266
4,921   4,181   3,495   3,036   2,260
5,249   4,126   3,490   3,033   2,255
5,577   4,071   3,486   3,031   2,249
5,906   4,016   3,481   3,029   2,244

Horizontalgeschwindigkeiten
Column 2
Altitude   Power Setting & true Air Speed
ft   1   2   3   4
0   353   382   398   377
328   354   383   399   378
656   355   384   400   379
984   356   385   401   380
1,312   358   387   402   381
1,640   359   388   403   382
1,969   360   389   404   384
2,297   361   390   405   385
2,625   362   391   406   386
2,953   364   392   407   387
3,281   365   393   408   388
3,609   366   394   409   390
3,937   367   395   410   391
4,265   368   396   411   392
4,593   370   398   412   393
4,921   371   399   413   394
5,249   372   400   414   396
5,577   373   401   415   397
5,906   374   402   416   398

[RightF00T]

Nice work...although it will be even harder to catch those run90s if this turns out to be relevant!

[AGJV44_Rot 1]

I need to upload the doc file I have it on I just posted it in here because it was easier to do and I was out of time.  It clearly shows from HTC's data that the two power outputs are indeed different.  My question is this how can we have the great climb but get jipped with the same outpout settings for top speed at alt???  I really would like Pyro to answer this as I think this is more then enough proof for a change for the Dora.  Others have posted this data before but I have never seen anyone compare the two datas from this angle.

[HoHun]

Hi AGV,

A comment on curve 3: The translation of

"Notleistung mit A Lader als Bodenmotor"

as

"Special Emergency with Compressor as Base-Engine"

is not quite adequate.

It should be:

"Emergency power with A-type supercharger as dedicated low-altitude engine."

"A-type" refers to the Jumo 213A supercharger - there was also the E-type supercharger which made the Jumo 213E a dedicated high-altitude engine.

The power output for curve 4 is 1900 HP, for curve 3 it's the 2100 HP listed by most sources as maximum power for the D-9.

The 4331 fpm (22 m/s) climb matches the 2100 HP well, the 1900 HP climb should be well below - 300 HP make a difference, of course :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

[wetrat]

It's porked.. fix it you bastard!

[Nilsen]

fix it and perk it along with the lame7

[AGJV44_Rot 1]

Pyro???  Any response or help on this matter would be appreciated.

[Shane]

Originally posted by AGJV44_Rot 1
Pyro???  Any response or help on this matter would be appreciated.

i heard pyro has a soft spot for people who hold their breath until he answers them.

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by AGJV44_Rot 1
My question is this how can we have the great climb but get jipped with the same outpout settings for top speed at alt???  I really would like Pyro to answer this as I think this is more then enough proof for a change for the Dora.

That's surely gonna get HTC to answer you.  No offense, but the way you just phrased this has ensured that Pyro and company will probably never respond to you.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[RightF00T]

Sorry Lev, but how do you know?

[Dead Man Flying]

Originally posted by RightF00T
Sorry Lev, but how do you know?

Apparently you haven't read the incredibly long thread where the Luftwhining came to a head, and HiTech basically stated that the manner in which Luftwaffe fans frame their complaints really matters.  It's right here, I believe.

Then reread how AGJV44 describes 190D9 pilots as "jipped," and you'll understand.

-- Todd/Leviathn

[Naudet]

As i have those charts as harcopies i just want to throw in a few words.


The Speedchart is from 11. March 1945
The Climbchart is from 23. March 1945

And in the Climbchart there is no indication on which of the multiple Sondernotleistungs-Settings the chart is based.
It is very likely the C3 fuel Special Emergency, but might as well be the B4fuel+MW50+Ladedrucksteigerungsrüstsatz power setting.

And the actual difference between those two (in Speedchart they are #2 & #4) is somewhere around 30-50PS, not more.

The maximum speed differences between both are only 6 mph.
And best speeds are attained at slightly different altittudes, which might have to do with a different power development between B4 and C3 fuel over altittude.

The actual power output is the following:

#2 special emergency (C3) ~ 2130PS @SL
#4 special emergency (B4+MW50+1,8ata) 2100PS @SL
#3 special emergency power with A-type supercharger  2240PS or more@SL (this could not be cleared yet)


I know i have gone through this with HoHun more than one time, but there is no 1900PS power setting using MW50.
1900PS are achieved through a simple boost pressure increase, without any MW50 or fuel injection.

This is also verified by an british report, regarding to a FW190D9 that crashlanded during OP Bodenplatte (Jan 1945).
This maschine had 2 Emergency Settings.

#1 being Ladedrucksteigerung (Boost pressure increase) giving 1900PS
#2 being Ladedrucksteigerung + MW50 injection, giving 2100PS.



@AG: The difference in climbrate between those two power settings would not be great, and as the climbchart nowhere mentions which Sondernotleistungs-setting was actually meant, it might well be right that it fits to the MW50 setting.

[GScholz]

Naudet, you're basically saying that we have in AH a 1900PS Dora without any of the standard German WEP systems like MW50? Is this right?

[Naudet]

No i am basiciclly saying we have a 2100PS Dora in AH.

Might have confused u with all the #x and #y.

Just look again at this:

The actual power output is the following:

#2 special emergency (C3) ~ 2130PS @SL
#4 special emergency (B4+MW50+1,8ata) 2100PS @SL
#3 special emergency power with A-type supercharger 2240PS or more@SL (this could not be cleared yet)


Those are the #-designation for the curves in the Original Speedchart.
AGs assumption was now (as the Climbchart only read Sondernotleistung, but no additional explanation), after looking at AHs charts that AH's D9 uses setting #4 for speed and setting number #2 for climb.
This would indeed be somewhat contrary, as those two settings don't even use the same fuel.

My opinion is, that 1st, it is not clear to which Sondernotleistung-Powersetting the climbchart reffers. And 2nd, that it makes not much of a difference as the power output of those two settings only differs by ~30PS.

So AH has a D9 producing something between 2100-2130PS.

Hope i got it clear now.

[J_A_B]

The 190D-9 in AH should have MW50.  You will note that the AUX fuel tank is unavailable; you can use this tank on the A-8.

J_A_B